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#1: Today in jazz camp

Posted on 2006-07-20 04:53:29 by Joe Finn

Today's highlight was a visit from the great Dave Liebman.

We were treated to a performance [albeit a brief one] and a wonderful hour
long lecture on the importance of transcription. Liebman is a great believer
in learning to sing classic jazz solos as a means of learning the music. He
played a cassette tape through a boom box of his singing ESP by Wayne
Shorter along with the original recording. It was the kind of recording
where the singing was all on the left and the rest of the original recording
was all on the right. This made for a humorous and entertaining presentation
as he panned the speakers from left to right; and I'll tell you, Liebman
sang that solo note for note perfectly.

His concept is that this is the way to internalize the music and make it
your own. He also spent time on the notation, analysis, and the ear training
benefits of transcription. Dave spoke about transcription as being a kind of
common denominator among jazz players and said that he doesn't even know of
anyone who never transcribed anything. I have to admit that I can't think of
a player worth a damn who has ignored this way of learning music either.
When camp is over I'll get back to my own transcription chores asap, believe
me. It's the best possible lesson, but one you'll have to give yourself
personally.

He spent a little while talking about Indian music where the pedagogy
follows an oral tradition model. Nothing is written down yet this great
musical tradition seems to go forward. Dave noted that there is an
apprenticeship aspect of this kind of education in the jazz tradition too.

Liebman also talked about musical fathers and sons, and how important it is
to go to the source. He feels strongly that it's better to transcribe a
"father" like Coltrane or Parker than to try to learn from one of their
successors. His basic message is that if there is a modern player you like,
don't transcribe him; transcribe the guys that he learned from to be closer
to the actual source.

Anyway, it was great to see Dave again and to hear him play. As one of the
few great post Coltrane tenors his insights are always most welcome. It was
especially interesting to hear Liebman play with camp director Don Braden
who was actually a student of his many years ago at the Aebersold camp in
Kentucky.

Liebman also went out of his way to play with our several student ensembles
during the day and to give his personal advice to individual players. He is
a class act and a true gentleman; a nice guy too, as always.
.........joe

--
Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net

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#2: Re: Today in jazz camp

Posted on 2006-07-20 10:32:53 by unknown

Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)

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#3: Re: Today in jazz camp

Posted on 2006-07-20 16:26:01 by derek

Joe, what camp are you writing about?

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#4: Re: Today in jazz camp

Posted on 2006-07-20 18:28:10 by Joe Finn

&quot;Tim Hodgson&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:thnews&#64;poboxmolar.com.invalid" target="_blank">thnews&#64;poboxmolar.com.invalid</a>&gt; wrote &gt;
&gt; By that logic, surely you shouldn't go to the guys your hero learned
&gt; from, but the guys they learned from, etc etc. There seems to be an
&gt; assumption here that 'older is better', and that current players are
&gt; automatically a pale imitation of their predecessors, with every
&gt; generation getting further from &quot;the source&quot; - whatever that is.

Dave's other observation in this regard was &quot;If you really want to do this
right you'll have to go back to Armstrong.&quot; He was encouraging people to
deal with the tradition itself in a direct fashion by embracing the history.
There is certainly a tremendous amount of raw material there.
...........joe

--
Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net

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#5: Re: Today in jazz camp

Posted on 2006-07-20 18:28:26 by Joe Finn

Litchfield .....joe

--
Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net
&quot;Derek&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:derek&#64;ycoaoffice.com" target="_blank">derek&#64;ycoaoffice.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:1153405561.442418.188430&#64;s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1153405561.442418.188430&#64;s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt;
&gt; Joe, what camp are you writing about?
&gt;

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#6: Re: Today in jazz camp

Posted on 2006-07-20 19:51:26 by Jeff

On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 09:32:53 +0100, <a href="mailto:thnews&#64;poboxmolar.com.invalid" target="_blank">thnews&#64;poboxmolar.com.invalid</a> (Tim
Hodgson) wrote:

&gt; Thanks joe - really interesting post. But I must admit I'm very puzzled
&gt; by this:
&gt;
&gt; Joe Finn &lt;<a href="mailto:Joe&#64;JoeFinn.net" target="_blank">Joe&#64;JoeFinn.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt; Liebman also talked about musical fathers and sons, and how important it is
&gt; &gt; to go to the source. He feels strongly that it's better to transcribe a
&gt; &gt; &quot;father&quot; like Coltrane or Parker than to try to learn from one of their
&gt; &gt; successors. His basic message is that if there is a modern player you like,
&gt; &gt; don't transcribe him; transcribe the guys that he learned from to be closer
&gt; &gt; to the actual source.
&gt;
&gt; By that logic, surely you shouldn't go to the guys your hero learned
&gt; from, but the guys they learned from, etc etc. There seems to be an
&gt; assumption here that 'older is better', and that current players are
&gt; automatically a pale imitation of their predecessors, with every
&gt; generation getting further from &quot;the source&quot; - whatever that is.
&gt;
&gt; But I've probably misunderstood you... :)

I don't know what Joe meant, I'll have to ask Liebman ;-)

Seriously, I think it's immensely useful to work back up the
hierarchy, but not to the exclusion of the later artists. I think you
should transcribe them all. I haven't done very much of it but every
time I do I learn something new.

The problem I have with transcription is that I dissect the solo so
much I no longer can enjoy listening to it as a piece of music. It's
like being a doctor, and your patient who walked in the door as a
living being with personality is now just a cardiovascular system.

--
Jeff
There are 10 kinds of people in the world.
1 the type who understands hex and F all the other types.
(reply by using my name @seigle.net)

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#7: Re: Today in jazz camp

Posted on 2006-07-20 21:45:59 by unknown

Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)

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#8: Re: Today in jazz camp

Posted on 2006-07-20 22:12:06 by Joey Goldstein

Jeff wrote:

&gt; The problem I have with transcription is that I dissect the solo so
&gt; much I no longer can enjoy listening to it as a piece of music. It's
&gt; like being a doctor, and your patient who walked in the door as a
&gt; living being with personality is now just a cardiovascular system.


That's never happened to me. Every time I lift something I appreciate it
all the more. Much more.

And it only takes a year or so until you forget how to sing it or play
it, and then it's like a new solo again, almost.

--
Joey Goldstein
<a href="http://www.joeygoldstein.com" target="_blank">http://www.joeygoldstein.com</a>
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

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#9: Re: Today in jazz camp

Posted on 2006-07-21 00:16:57 by Guido Schrijnemaekers

On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 09:32:53 +0100, wrote Tim Hodgson:

&gt; Thanks joe - really interesting post. But I must admit I'm very puzzled
&gt; by this:
&gt;
&gt; Joe Finn &lt;<a href="mailto:Joe&#64;JoeFinn.net" target="_blank">Joe&#64;JoeFinn.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; Liebman also talked about musical fathers and sons, and how important it is
&gt;&gt; to go to the source. He feels strongly that it's better to transcribe a
&gt;&gt; &quot;father&quot; like Coltrane or Parker than to try to learn from one of their
&gt;&gt; successors. His basic message is that if there is a modern player you like,
&gt;&gt; don't transcribe him; transcribe the guys that he learned from to be closer
&gt;&gt; to the actual source.
&gt;
&gt; By that logic, surely you shouldn't go to the guys your hero learned
&gt; from, but the guys they learned from, etc etc. There seems to be an
&gt; assumption here that 'older is better', and that current players are
&gt; automatically a pale imitation of their predecessors, with every
&gt; generation getting further from &quot;the source&quot; - whatever that is.
&gt;
&gt; But I've probably misunderstood you... :)

I guess it's about the fact that in jazz, there are a few really original
players, who really developed an original new style. And there are a lot
of more or less followers, people who more or less play in the style of
some-one before. I guess he ment you should study the first category not
the latter.

Maybe because the first category are the more creative players ?

Allthough I wonder sometimes if concentrating to much on the solos of
others instead of playing around with the raw material (scales,
arpegio's, intervals) by yourself, in itself doesn't make one become a
follower.

___

Guido Schrijnemaekers
___________________________________________________________

<a href="http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=553445" target="_blank">http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=553445</a>
___________________________________________________________

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#10: Re: Today in jazz camp

Posted on 2006-07-21 12:05:59 by unknown

Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)

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#11: Re: Today in jazz camp

Posted on 2006-07-21 17:42:44 by KenK

I always wonder if just &quot;knowing&quot; a solo is enough. Being able to sing,
think or play it. Or is there something inherently better about writing
it down?

KenK
Joe Finn wrote:
&gt; Today's highlight was a visit from the great Dave Liebman.
&gt;
&gt; We were treated to a performance [albeit a brief one] and a wonderful hour
&gt; long lecture on the importance of transcription. Liebman is a great believer
&gt; in learning to sing classic jazz solos as a means of learning the music. He
&gt; played a cassette tape through a boom box of his singing ESP by Wayne
&gt; Shorter along with the original recording. It was the kind of recording
&gt; where the singing was all on the left and the rest of the original recording
&gt; was all on the right. This made for a humorous and entertaining presentation
&gt; as he panned the speakers from left to right; and I'll tell you, Liebman
&gt; sang that solo note for note perfectly.
&gt;
&gt; His concept is that this is the way to internalize the music and make it
&gt; your own. He also spent time on the notation, analysis, and the ear training
&gt; benefits of transcription. Dave spoke about transcription as being a kind of
&gt; common denominator among jazz players and said that he doesn't even know of
&gt; anyone who never transcribed anything. I have to admit that I can't think of
&gt; a player worth a damn who has ignored this way of learning music either.
&gt; When camp is over I'll get back to my own transcription chores asap, believe
&gt; me. It's the best possible lesson, but one you'll have to give yourself
&gt; personally.
&gt;
&gt; He spent a little while talking about Indian music where the pedagogy
&gt; follows an oral tradition model. Nothing is written down yet this great
&gt; musical tradition seems to go forward. Dave noted that there is an
&gt; apprenticeship aspect of this kind of education in the jazz tradition too.
&gt;
&gt; Liebman also talked about musical fathers and sons, and how important it is
&gt; to go to the source. He feels strongly that it's better to transcribe a
&gt; &quot;father&quot; like Coltrane or Parker than to try to learn from one of their
&gt; successors. His basic message is that if there is a modern player you like,
&gt; don't transcribe him; transcribe the guys that he learned from to be closer
&gt; to the actual source.
&gt;
&gt; Anyway, it was great to see Dave again and to hear him play. As one of the
&gt; few great post Coltrane tenors his insights are always most welcome. It was
&gt; especially interesting to hear Liebman play with camp director Don Braden
&gt; who was actually a student of his many years ago at the Aebersold camp in
&gt; Kentucky.
&gt;
&gt; Liebman also went out of his way to play with our several student ensembles
&gt; during the day and to give his personal advice to individual players. He is
&gt; a class act and a true gentleman; a nice guy too, as always.
&gt; ........joe
&gt;
&gt; --
&gt; Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net

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#12: Re: Today in jazz camp

Posted on 2006-07-21 22:37:58 by billcoumbe

This two CD set has lots of great advice from Dave Liebman - inspiring
stuff!

<a href="http://aebersold.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&amp;Product_Code=CWL&amp;Category_Code=" target="_blank"> http://aebersold.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&amp; Product_Code=CWL&amp;Category_Code=</a>

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#13: Re: Today in jazz camp

Posted on 2006-07-21 22:44:31 by Tone

Tim Hodgson wrote:
&gt; Guido Schrijnemaekers &lt;<a href="mailto:guido&#64;someplace.nl" target="_blank">guido&#64;someplace.nl</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt; On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 09:32:53 +0100, wrote Tim Hodgson:
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; Joe Finn &lt;<a href="mailto:Joe&#64;JoeFinn.net" target="_blank">Joe&#64;JoeFinn.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; Liebman also talked about musical fathers and sons, and how important it is
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; to go to the source. He feels strongly that it's better to transcribe a
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &quot;father&quot; like Coltrane or Parker than to try to learn from one of their
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; successors. His basic message is that if there is a modern player you like,
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; don't transcribe him; transcribe the guys that he learned from to be closer
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; to the actual source.
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; By that logic, surely you shouldn't go to the guys your hero learned
&gt; &gt; &gt; from, but the guys they learned from, etc etc. There seems to be an
&gt; &gt; &gt; assumption here that 'older is better', and that current players are
&gt; &gt; &gt; automatically a pale imitation of their predecessors, with every
&gt; &gt; &gt; generation getting further from &quot;the source&quot; - whatever that is.
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; But I've probably misunderstood you... :)
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; I guess it's about the fact that in jazz, there are a few really original
&gt; &gt; players, who really developed an original new style. And there are a lot
&gt; &gt; of more or less followers, people who more or less play in the style of
&gt; &gt; some-one before. I guess he ment you should study the first category not
&gt; &gt; the latter.
&gt;
&gt; Yes - maybe my problem is with the word 'successors', which seems to
&gt; imply that earlier = better. Certainly I can see the point of going to
&gt; the originator of a style rather than the imitators.
&gt;

The innovators had to come first so there is no way around studying the
earlier one in the case of innovators vs those who imitated. As far as
one being better, if you think of it as elaboration or exploration of
the originator's innovation(s), as opposed to mere imitation, it seems
like either one might be better. Sometimes people take an idea that
they got from someone else to much more fruitful places. I don't know
who showed Wes the idea of playing octaves in a solo, (or Benson the
octaves with a 4th or 5th,) but I doubt that whoever it was did it
&quot;better&quot;. Although those probably dont really count as much innovation
in the grand scheme of things Liebman is addressing.

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