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#1: Audition expectations

Posted on 2006-07-15 02:48:48 by pscohn

hey everyone,

I'm getting ready to audition for college this coming winter, I'll be a
senior in high school. So far some of the colleges I'm thinking about
auditioning at are North Texas, Miami, Purchase, and NYU. I've seen the
audition requirements on many different college websites, such as play
two/three contrasting standards, sightread, or whatever, but I'm still
clueless as to what it really takes to get into the college, or what
their expectations are for admitting students.

I know that probably all of those schools are very competitive for jazz
guitar, and I'm pretty worried whether I've got what it takes. I just
want to know how good you need to be to get into some or all of those
colleges, in terms of improvisation, chord comping,
theory/scales/arpeggios, everything. Can someone please point me in the
right direction of what to study, what I need to know and do to get
into a good program? I'm ready for studying guitar in college and I
know auditions are just a small part of the whole thing, but I just
want to make sure to be ready and that I'll be able to get in (or else
I'll practice what you guys suggest until I am).

Also, does anybody know what kind of gpa/sats you need to get into any
of those schools? Thanks a lot.

-Paul

Report this message

#2: Re: Audition expectations

Posted on 2006-07-15 03:40:47 by Tone

Paul wrote:
> hey everyone,
>
> I'm getting ready to audition for college this coming winter, I'll be a
> senior in high school. So far some of the colleges I'm thinking about
> auditioning at are North Texas, Miami, Purchase, and NYU. I've seen the
> audition requirements on many different college websites, such as play
> two/three contrasting standards, sightread, or whatever, but I'm still
> clueless as to what it really takes to get into the college, or what
> their expectations are for admitting students.

Why not contact the places and see if you can get an email address or
something for the guitar teachers you'd likely be studying with and
just ask them the same thing? And I think most music schools are pretty
explicit about what the auditions consist of so you can concentrate on
just that for the next 3 or 4 months, maybe with a teacher who has been
through a similar music program.

Its worth keeping in mind that colleges are businesses - and they don't
stay in business (other than a few "ivy league" ones) by turning people
away so I doubt if you'd be flat out rejected most places if you can
read some, comp some, improvise some. If you are seriously worried
that you don't have what it takes to pass the auditions you could take
a year off and really shed or go in as an undecided major (and really
shed :)

As a reality check, a teacher who's been around could probably tell you
in one lesson what your odds are and what needs work etc.

Report this message

#3: Re: Audition expectations

Posted on 2006-07-15 03:48:25 by mylesgorham

If your check clears you'll probably get in. If your check clears and
you don't lose form on a medium Bb blues, you'll definitely get in.

Myles

Report this message

#4: Re: Audition expectations

Posted on 2006-07-15 18:44:48 by Joe Finn

&quot;Paul&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:pscohn&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">pscohn&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:1152924528.583998.173840&#64;s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1152924528.583998.173840&#64;s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt; hey everyone,
&gt;
&gt; I'm getting ready to audition for college this coming winter, I'll be a
&gt; senior in high school. So far some of the colleges I'm thinking about
&gt; auditioning at are North Texas, Miami, Purchase, and NYU. I've seen the
&gt; audition requirements on many different college websites, such as play
&gt; two/three contrasting standards, sightread, or whatever, but I'm still
&gt; clueless as to what it really takes to get into the college, or what
&gt; their expectations are for admitting students.


Paul: I just went through this process with my son Tom. He will be entering
the New School this fall. He had auditioned for Purchase, Berklee and
Manhattan too.

The comment you made about the three contrasting standards is important.
Work hard at being able to bring your performance in this regard to as high
a level as possible.


&gt; I know that probably all of those schools are very competitive for jazz
&gt; guitar, and I'm pretty worried whether I've got what it takes. I just
&gt; want to know how good you need to be to get into some or all of those
&gt; colleges, in terms of improvisation, chord comping,
&gt; theory/scales/arpeggios, everything.

If you are like most musicians you want to be as good as you can possibly
be, right? I've had students over the years who were frankly not the cream
of the crop that were accepted into major conservatories. Talk to your high
school music faculty and your private instructor about this. Getting in may
not be as difficult as you might think.


Still, you are correct in terms of the competitive aspect but that is true
of music in general. Any scholarship offers you get will be based on your
audition. If your private instructor is best friends with the director of
the jazz faculty that might help too. &lt;g&gt;



&gt; Can someone please point me in the
&gt; right direction of what to study, what I need to know and do to get
&gt; into a good program? I'm ready for studying guitar in college and I
&gt; know auditions are just a small part of the whole thing, but I just
&gt; want to make sure to be ready and that I'll be able to get in (or else
&gt; I'll practice what you guys suggest until I am).


I'm going to disagree here. The audition is not just a small part of the
whole thing. The audition *is* the whole thing. Do everything you can do the
present yourself as an outstanding and superior performer. Then you can sit
back and evaluate the various scholarship options.


&gt; Also, does anybody know what kind of gpa/sats you need to get into any
&gt; of those schools? Thanks a lot.
&gt;
&gt; -Paul

Our experience was that the conservatories were not too concerned with
academic records. Purchase is actually a college. Music majors have to take
something like 35 credits outside of music to graduate.


Good luck. I'll be happy to answer any other questions you have.
.........joe


--
Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net

&gt;

Report this message

#5: Re: Audition expectations

Posted on 2006-07-15 20:27:06 by kitekrazy

Joe Finn wrote:

&gt;
&gt; Our experience was that the conservatories were not too concerned with
&gt; academic records. Purchase is actually a college. Music majors have to take
&gt; something like 35 credits outside of music to graduate.
&gt;
&gt;

And realize being a music major isn't the best as far as paying the
bills.

Report this message

#6: Re: Audition expectations

Posted on 2006-07-15 21:19:42 by pscohn

Thanks everyone for you advice. you don't have to tell me about paying
the bills, I've thought about that plenty on my own. I just want to
know where I should be in my playing in order to get into a great
school.




kitekrazy wrote:
&gt; Joe Finn wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Our experience was that the conservatories were not too concerned with
&gt; &gt; academic records. Purchase is actually a college. Music majors have to take
&gt; &gt; something like 35 credits outside of music to graduate.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt;
&gt; And realize being a music major isn't the best as far as paying the
&gt; bills.

Report this message

#7: Re: Audition expectations

Posted on 2006-07-16 04:15:53 by sgcim

Joe Finn wrote:
&gt; &quot;Paul&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:pscohn&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">pscohn&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:<a href="mailto:1152924528.583998.173840&#64;s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1152924528.583998.173840&#64;s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt; &gt; hey everyone,
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; I'm getting ready to audition for college this coming winter, I'll be a
&gt; &gt; senior in high school. So far some of the colleges I'm thinking about
&gt; &gt; auditioning at are North Texas, Miami, Purchase, and NYU. I've seen the
&gt; &gt; audition requirements on many different college websites, such as play
&gt; &gt; two/three contrasting standards, sightread, or whatever, but I'm still
&gt; &gt; clueless as to what it really takes to get into the college, or what
&gt; &gt; their expectations are for admitting students.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Paul: I just went through this process with my son Tom. He will be entering
&gt; the New School this fall. He had auditioned for Purchase, Berklee and
&gt; Manhattan too.
&gt;
&gt; The comment you made about the three contrasting standards is important.
&gt; Work hard at being able to bring your performance in this regard to as high
&gt; a level as possible.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; &gt; I know that probably all of those schools are very competitive for jazz
&gt; &gt; guitar, and I'm pretty worried whether I've got what it takes. I just
&gt; &gt; want to know how good you need to be to get into some or all of those
&gt; &gt; colleges, in terms of improvisation, chord comping,
&gt; &gt; theory/scales/arpeggios, everything.
&gt;
&gt; If you are like most musicians you want to be as good as you can possibly
&gt; be, right? I've had students over the years who were frankly not the cream
&gt; of the crop that were accepted into major conservatories. Talk to your high
&gt; school music faculty and your private instructor about this. Getting in may
&gt; not be as difficult as you might think.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Still, you are correct in terms of the competitive aspect but that is true
&gt; of music in general. Any scholarship offers you get will be based on your
&gt; audition. If your private instructor is best friends with the director of
&gt; the jazz faculty that might help too. &lt;g&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; &gt; Can someone please point me in the
&gt; &gt; right direction of what to study, what I need to know and do to get
&gt; &gt; into a good program? I'm ready for studying guitar in college and I
&gt; &gt; know auditions are just a small part of the whole thing, but I just
&gt; &gt; want to make sure to be ready and that I'll be able to get in (or else
&gt; &gt; I'll practice what you guys suggest until I am).
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; I'm going to disagree here. The audition is not just a small part of the
&gt; whole thing. The audition *is* the whole thing. Do everything you can do the
&gt; present yourself as an outstanding and superior performer. Then you can sit
&gt; back and evaluate the various scholarship options.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; &gt; Also, does anybody know what kind of gpa/sats you need to get into any
&gt; &gt; of those schools? Thanks a lot.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; -Paul
&gt;
&gt; Our experience was that the conservatories were not too concerned with
&gt; academic records. Purchase is actually a college. Music majors have to take
&gt; something like 35 credits outside of music to graduate.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Good luck. I'll be happy to answer any other questions you have.
&gt; ........joe
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; --
&gt; Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net
&gt;
&gt; &gt;
Speaking of Purchase, I just finished doing a series of jazz gigs with
2 of their undergrads(alto and trombone) and these young cats blew me
off the stand!
There's no question that school has helped these guys, but I'm
pretty sure they could play when they were in high school.

On guitar they have John Abercrombie and Randy Johnston and some other
guy I don't know.
They only have a few ensembles, so if you're not good enough at
reading, you won't get in.
As far as getting in, what the man said about the check clearing
probably holds true.

I asked the 2 young mothers how they were going to make a living once
they get out of school and one of them said he'd move into NYC and do
gigs and get a college gig teaching jazz.
I said &quot;yeah, but what are you going to do to make a living...?&quot;

Report this message

#8: Re: Audition expectations

Posted on 2006-07-16 05:31:36 by pscohn

<a href="mailto:sgcim&#64;hotmail.com" target="_blank">sgcim&#64;hotmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt; I asked the 2 young mothers how they were going to make a living once
&gt; they get out of school and one of them said he'd move into NYC and do
&gt; gigs and get a college gig teaching jazz.
&gt; I said &quot;yeah, but what are you going to do to make a living...?


What, you can't make a living doing gigs and teaching in college? What
else would you recommend?

Report this message

#9: Re: Audition expectations

Posted on 2006-07-16 05:34:25 by pscohn

<a href="mailto:s...&#64;hotmail.com" target="_blank">s...&#64;hotmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt; I asked the 2 young mothers how they were going to make a living once
&gt; they get out of school and one of them said he'd move into NYC and do
&gt; gigs and get a college gig teaching jazz.
&gt; I said &quot;yeah, but what are you going to do to make a living...?

What, you can't make a living doing gigs and teaching in college? What
else would you recommend? And what kind of stuff do I need to practice
sightreading, like fakebook stuff or what?

Report this message

#10: Re: Audition expectations

Posted on 2006-07-19 19:45:55 by Greg West

&gt; What, you can't make a living doing gigs and teaching in college?

Time for the wake up call!

It's simply the law of supply and demand. At any given point, in any
city, there are more guitar players than there are gigs. Guitarists
work for cheap and unlike most professions, what a gig pays hasn't
risen with inflation over the years. When I was 16, (30 years ago) my
band used to get paid $100 a person for a gig. Today, most bands don't
make much more than that, even though a car, a house, a loaf of bread
costs ten times what it did then.

People pay for skills, like fixing computers, building buildings,
framing a house, writing software code, etc. People don't pay much for
music and there are too many musicians willing to work for peanuts.
When you develop the skills for sight-reading, playing charts, music
theory, and the stuff you will learn in college, you have a skill that
people will pay for. They'll pay you to teach their kid to play the
guitar. A cruise line might hire you to play in the show band on a
cruise ship, but they'll hire a guitarist who can read and play whether
he went to college or not.

The chance of becoming a famous and known guitarist is equivalent to
becoming a star in the NFL or NBA. True geniuses are rare and, unlike
professional athletes, they don't make much money. In the rock world,
most bands make their money selling T-shirts at their gigs because the
record company recoups most of their album sales and tour profits to
collect for royalty advances. In the jazz world, there are so many
obscure geniuses, you couldn't begin to count them.

Although I still teach guitar, I've found that music is a tough way to
make a living and an easy way to go broke. Find something else that
pays the bills and learn to do it well. Then you can earn enough to
have a comfortable home, a wife, some kids, and maybe have enough left
over to buy yourself a nice archtop to play in your free time. Unless
you can absolutely not avoid it, making your living as a musician is
makes life way harder than it needs to be. Do it only if you love it
so much, you simply can't do anything else.

Greg West

Report this message

#11: Re: Audition expectations

Posted on 2006-07-19 20:22:46 by richieb

Paul wrote:
&gt; hey everyone,
&gt;
&gt; I'm getting ready to audition for college this coming winter, I'll be a
&gt; senior in high school. So far some of the colleges I'm thinking about
&gt; auditioning at are North Texas, Miami, Purchase, and NYU. I've seen the
&gt; audition requirements on many different college websites, such as play
&gt; two/three contrasting standards, sightread, or whatever, but I'm still
&gt; clueless as to what it really takes to get into the college, or what
&gt; their expectations are for admitting students.

[...]

Here are auditon requirements for Jazz performance at Rutgers:

<a href="http://www.masongross.rutgers.edu/admissions/aud_music_ugr_jazz.html" target="_blank"> http://www.masongross.rutgers.edu/admissions/aud_music_ugr_j azz.html</a>

If you can play couple of Charlie Parker tunes you are ahead of the
game...

...richie

Report this message

#12: Re: Audition expectations

Posted on 2006-07-20 01:38:11 by JC McNeil

Frank Zappa's recommendation to class graduating with music degrees:
&quot;Get an Amway Distributorship&quot;


Greg West wrote:
&gt; &gt; What, you can't make a living doing gigs and teaching in college?
&gt;
&gt; Time for the wake up call!
&gt;
&gt; It's simply the law of supply and demand. At any given point, in any
&gt; city, there are more guitar players than there are gigs. Guitarists
&gt; work for cheap and unlike most professions, what a gig pays hasn't
&gt; risen with inflation over the years. When I was 16, (30 years ago) my
&gt; band used to get paid $100 a person for a gig. Today, most bands don't
&gt; make much more than that, even though a car, a house, a loaf of bread
&gt; costs ten times what it did then.
&gt;
&gt; People pay for skills, like fixing computers, building buildings,
&gt; framing a house, writing software code, etc. People don't pay much for
&gt; music and there are too many musicians willing to work for peanuts.
&gt; When you develop the skills for sight-reading, playing charts, music
&gt; theory, and the stuff you will learn in college, you have a skill that
&gt; people will pay for. They'll pay you to teach their kid to play the
&gt; guitar. A cruise line might hire you to play in the show band on a
&gt; cruise ship, but they'll hire a guitarist who can read and play whether
&gt; he went to college or not.
&gt;
&gt; The chance of becoming a famous and known guitarist is equivalent to
&gt; becoming a star in the NFL or NBA. True geniuses are rare and, unlike
&gt; professional athletes, they don't make much money. In the rock world,
&gt; most bands make their money selling T-shirts at their gigs because the
&gt; record company recoups most of their album sales and tour profits to
&gt; collect for royalty advances. In the jazz world, there are so many
&gt; obscure geniuses, you couldn't begin to count them.
&gt;
&gt; Although I still teach guitar, I've found that music is a tough way to
&gt; make a living and an easy way to go broke. Find something else that
&gt; pays the bills and learn to do it well. Then you can earn enough to
&gt; have a comfortable home, a wife, some kids, and maybe have enough left
&gt; over to buy yourself a nice archtop to play in your free time. Unless
&gt; you can absolutely not avoid it, making your living as a musician is
&gt; makes life way harder than it needs to be. Do it only if you love it
&gt; so much, you simply can't do anything else.
&gt;
&gt; Greg West

Report this message

#13: Re: Audition expectations

Posted on 2006-07-20 02:10:03 by Paul K

Greg West wrote:
&gt;&gt;What, you can't make a living doing gigs and teaching in college?
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Time for the wake up call!
&gt;
(lots of pessimistic but true stuff cut)
&gt;
&gt; Greg West
&gt;

There is another take: your college-age years are typically the last
time you have to learn something deep/meaningful/life lasting. even if
music doesnt work as a career, studying it when your mind is still
functional enough to allow you to improve means you'll be a much better
player than if you wait until you are in your 30s. If you are smart (and
if you love jazz, you are), you'll eventually find a way to support
yourself. IMHO, studying business or pre-law/pre med, engineering, or
any of the
career preparing majors is mostly a waste of a last oportunity, unless
you really arent into anything else


Of course, this is all predicated on the idea that you have the
oportunity to study in a good program. Studying Jazz somewhere where the
faculty are mediocre is probalby a waste of money

Paul K

Report this message

#14: Re: Audition expectations

Posted on 2006-07-20 03:41:55 by JC McNeil

Paul K wrote:
&gt; Greg West wrote:
&gt; &gt;&gt;What, you can't make a living doing gigs and teaching in college?
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Time for the wake up call!
&gt; &gt;
&gt; (lots of pessimistic but true stuff cut)
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Greg West
&gt; &gt;
&gt;
&gt; There is another take: your college-age years are typically the last
&gt; time you have to learn something deep/meaningful/life lasting. even if
&gt; music doesnt work as a career, studying it when your mind is still
&gt; functional enough to allow you to improve means you'll be a much better
&gt; player than if you wait until you are in your 30s. . .

ROFL- is the mind starting to go already when you hit the ancient 30's?

Report this message

#15: Re: Audition expectations

Posted on 2006-07-20 04:16:36 by Paul K

JC McNeil wrote:
&gt; Paul K wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt;Greg West wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;What, you can't make a living doing gigs and teaching in college?
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;Time for the wake up call!
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;(lots of pessimistic but true stuff cut)
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;Greg West
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;There is another take: your college-age years are typically the last
&gt;&gt;time you have to learn something deep/meaningful/life lasting. even if
&gt;&gt;music doesnt work as a career, studying it when your mind is still
&gt;&gt;functional enough to allow you to improve means you'll be a much better
&gt;&gt;player than if you wait until you are in your 30s. . .
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; ROFL- is the mind starting to go already when you hit the ancient 30's?
&gt;
just wait, you'll see :)

In my experience, for most jazz improvisors, 90% of what is in their bag
of tricks was learned before they were 35, and what they learned after
that took much more effort to incorporate. In addition, very few
players who start after 35 ever get good.
(the only exceptions are the participants in this NG, of course)

PK

Report this message

#16: Re: Audition expectations

Posted on 2006-07-20 05:18:36 by pscohn

Greg West wrote:
&gt; &gt; What, you can't make a living doing gigs and teaching in college?
&gt;
&gt; Time for the wake up call!
&gt;



I'd still like to teach college, that's a steady job and it can't pay
too badly along side regular gigging. What does it take to be a musical
genius? I'm not sure yet if I can be one. I also hope to work on jazz
piano in college so I might be able to do some stuff with that as well.


Also, how do you get jobs working for places like tv networks or movies
composing and/or performing music, not necessarily jazz? I wouldn't
mind being in one of those late-night bands or something...

Report this message

#17: Re: Audition expectations

Posted on 2006-07-20 15:21:19 by JC McNeil

I guess I'm weird- I'm 41 and have learned and improved more in the
last 2 years than I did in the prior 20.

Or, maybe I'm challenging your belief systems about age and learning.
How old was Grandma Moses when she started painting?

Paul K wrote:
&gt; JC McNeil wrote:
&gt; &gt; Paul K wrote:
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;Greg West wrote:
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;What, you can't make a living doing gigs and teaching in college?
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;Time for the wake up call!
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;(lots of pessimistic but true stuff cut)
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;Greg West
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;There is another take: your college-age years are typically the last
&gt; &gt;&gt;time you have to learn something deep/meaningful/life lasting. even if
&gt; &gt;&gt;music doesnt work as a career, studying it when your mind is still
&gt; &gt;&gt;functional enough to allow you to improve means you'll be a much better
&gt; &gt;&gt;player than if you wait until you are in your 30s. . .
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; ROFL- is the mind starting to go already when you hit the ancient 30's?
&gt; &gt;
&gt; just wait, you'll see :)

&gt; In my experience, for most jazz improvisors, 90% of what is in their bag
&gt; of tricks was learned before they were 35, and what they learned after
&gt; that took much more effort to incorporate. In addition, very few
&gt; players who start after 35 ever get good.
&gt; (the only exceptions are the participants in this NG, of course)
&gt;
&gt; PK

Report this message

#18: Re: Audition expectations

Posted on 2006-07-20 15:42:58 by John Rethorst

On 7/20/06 9:21 AM, in article
<a href="mailto:1153401679.428828.323280&#64;p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1153401679.428828.323280&#64;p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com</a>, &quot;JC McNeil&quot;
&lt;<a href="mailto:jc&#64;jcmcneil.com" target="_blank">jc&#64;jcmcneil.com</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt; I guess I'm weird- I'm 41 and have learned and improved more in the
&gt; last 2 years than I did in the prior 20.

This doesn't contradict my assertion.
&gt;
&gt; Or, maybe I'm challenging your belief systems about age and learning.

Whatever, dude.

&gt; How old was Grandma Moses when she started painting?


PK




&gt;
&gt; Paul K wrote:
&gt;&gt; JC McNeil wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt; Paul K wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Greg West wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; What, you can't make a living doing gigs and teaching in college?
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Time for the wake up call!
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; (lots of pessimistic but true stuff cut)
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Greg West
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; There is another take: your college-age years are typically the last
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; time you have to learn something deep/meaningful/life lasting. even if
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; music doesnt work as a career, studying it when your mind is still
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; functional enough to allow you to improve means you'll be a much better
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; player than if you wait until you are in your 30s. . .
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; ROFL- is the mind starting to go already when you hit the ancient 30's?
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; just wait, you'll see :)
&gt;
&gt;&gt; In my experience, for most jazz improvisors, 90% of what is in their bag
&gt;&gt; of tricks was learned before they were 35, and what they learned after
&gt;&gt; that took much more effort to incorporate. In addition, very few
&gt;&gt; players who start after 35 ever get good.
&gt;&gt; (the only exceptions are the participants in this NG, of course)
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; PK
&gt;

Report this message

#19: Re: Audition expectations

Posted on 2006-07-20 16:17:10 by unknownguitarplayer

I have to agree with Paul K. You can learn an enormous amount later in
life, but it's rare that you'll have another chance to become totally
immersed in anything the way you can during those post-high school
years. As the realities of family, making a living and just living
life emerge, the possibility of spending 8-10 hours a day practicing
and playing every night becomes more and more remote.

There's no age limit on getting through undergrad courses like
Psychobabble 101 or Constructive Deconstruction - you show up and do
what they tell you to do (re-read Pauls post telling you the general
undergrad courses are a waste of time and realize that he's a Professor
at a state university). If you're willing to do more and have some
aptitude, you can even get a Ph.D. in math or physics (honest!).

But the process of really internalizing jazz is a daunting one that
takes time, as anyone here will tell you. And just putting in the time
doesn't even guarantee that it will happen (although not putting in the
time is a pretty good tell that it won't). during that process, you're
not just learning how to play, you're actually changing the way you
think. I don't pretend to know anything about how the brain works and
all the neural development business, but I'd guess that it gets tougher
to do that as the equipment ages.

I guess what I'm saying is that you can make up for lost time in a lot
of things, but if you're talking about really digging in, music isn't
one of them.

UGP

Paul K wrote:
&gt; Greg West wrote:
&gt; &gt;&gt;What, you can't make a living doing gigs and teaching in college?
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Time for the wake up call!
&gt; &gt;
&gt; (lots of pessimistic but true stuff cut)
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Greg West
&gt; &gt;
&gt;
&gt; There is another take: your college-age years are typically the last
&gt; time you have to learn something deep/meaningful/life lasting. even if
&gt; music doesnt work as a career, studying it when your mind is still
&gt; functional enough to allow you to improve means you'll be a much better
&gt; player than if you wait until you are in your 30s. If you are smart (and
&gt; if you love jazz, you are), you'll eventually find a way to support
&gt; yourself. IMHO, studying business or pre-law/pre med, engineering, or
&gt; any of the
&gt; career preparing majors is mostly a waste of a last oportunity, unless
&gt; you really arent into anything else
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Of course, this is all predicated on the idea that you have the
&gt; oportunity to study in a good program. Studying Jazz somewhere where the
&gt; faculty are mediocre is probalby a waste of money
&gt;
&gt; Paul K

Report this message

#20: Re: Audition expectations

Posted on 2006-07-20 16:55:25 by Ray

Paul wrote:

&gt; I'd still like to teach college, that's a steady job and it can't pay
&gt; too badly along side regular gigging. What does it take to be a musical
&gt; genius? I'm not sure yet if I can be one.

I don't think genius is something you can become, it's innate. Not to
say you can't become a great musician. Just stay focused, work hard and
pray that everything comes together!

Ray

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#21: Re: Audition expectations

Posted on 2006-07-20 19:05:28 by jdahlste

Follow your heart and your desire and work very hard at it! Be the best
you can possibly
be (and that will be good enough IF you do because most people don't).

There was a recent study made of those who pursued work that paid a lot
so they could
later on in life then do what they really wanted to do. The other group
studied pursued
what they really loved from the start. There were more &quot;successful&quot;
people amongst the
group that started by doing what they loved than the others.

Work hard, do your very best and in the end you will find a way to meet
life's challenges
as those who have gone before you. Have Fun!

There are those that truly live life and there are those that live
dying.

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#22: Re: Audition expectations

Posted on 2006-07-20 19:47:33 by pscohn

ray wrote:
&gt; I don't think genius is something you can become, it's innate. Not to
&gt; say you can't become a great musician. Just stay focused, work hard and
&gt; pray that everything comes together!
&gt;
&gt; Ray

Well, sometimes genius requires some cultivation or something before it
really comes out - or maybe I just meant that I don't know if I am a
genius. You never know.

unknownguitarplayer wrote:
&gt; If you're willing to do more and have some
&gt; aptitude, you can even get a Ph.D. in math or physics (honest!).

How can you do that? I know I want to do jazz studies for bachelors and
probably masters. And does it have to be math or physics? lol, how
about ANYTHING else?

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#23: Re: Audition expectations

Posted on 2006-07-20 20:06:24 by Ray

Paul wrote:

&gt; ray wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt;I don't think genius is something you can become, it's innate. Not to
&gt;&gt;say you can't become a great musician. Just stay focused, work hard and
&gt;&gt;pray that everything comes together!
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;Ray
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Well, sometimes genius requires some cultivation or something before it
&gt; really comes out - or maybe I just meant that I don't know if I am a
&gt; genius. You never know.

After much &quot;cultivation&quot;, I know for a fact I'm not a genius! Best to
keep the nose to the grindstone and forget the genius factor.

Ray

Report this message

#24: Re: Audition expectations

Posted on 2006-07-20 20:54:12 by Paul Sanwald

Paul wrote:
&gt; I'd still like to teach college, that's a steady job and it can't pay
&gt; too badly along side regular gigging.

many colleges hire their adjunct teachers as contractors, it's one of
those jobs that can pay well and can also pay quite poorly. there is
quite large supply of jazz musicians willing to take teaching gigs,
there is a somewhat smaller demand for qualified jazz teachers.

&gt;
&gt; Also, how do you get jobs working for places like tv networks or movies
&gt; composing and/or performing music, not necessarily jazz? I wouldn't
&gt; mind being in one of those late-night bands or something...

a lot of us wouldn't mind gigs like this, but they are very hard to get
and take a lot of effort.

I am not saying any of this to be negative, I think you should go to
music and follow your dreams! but you should definitely be realistic
about the kind of money you're going to be making, the kind of jobs
it's realistic for you to get and the amount of money you'll be paying
for school. you don't want to end up in a situation where you're 100k
in debt in student loans and you have a bachelor's in jazz performance,
as you will have a lifetime of debt to look forward to.

--paul

Report this message

#25: Re: Audition expectations

Posted on 2006-07-20 22:14:05 by jdahlste

A few more thoughts:
The THING is to pursue something as deeply as you possibly can
over the next years
because once you do that your brain will be forever changed and it will
make learning other
things and pursuing them with depth much easier. The brain is a muscle
afterall.

There has been an ongoing debate about whether or not it is
valuable to attend
a university or similar to learn basket weaving etc. While most folks
can readily see
the value in someone studying chemistry and then working as a chemist
etc the value
in pursuing the fine and applied arts has always been blurred for many
because the
pursuit doesn't necessarily lead to work that pays and there is the
debt from the pursuit.
The outcome for those that pursue their love of the arts is sometimes
that they end up
doing something else to make money and other times they end up making
money in
something related more directly to what they pursued.

The remaining problem has always been this....if you study
accounting for example
and graduate you will likely find paying work no matter if you were a
great student (and
maybe will make more money) or an average student or less (and will
still find a job that
pays). In the fine and applied arts you generally only get to compete
for the precious few
paying positions if you are amongst the best of the best. That's the
reality...or if you
have connections etc.

It is your life to live so follow your passion but be realistic.
Pursuing music might
work out for you but if getting married and raising lots of kids is
also a high priority you
should be very realistic about your expectations in the arts.

No matter what, pour yourself into something like you have never
thought you
could. That act will reward you the rest of your life.


and Have Fun!

Report this message

#26: Re: Audition expectations

Posted on 2006-07-20 22:38:10 by jdahlste

OK...bear with me, I'm on a roll and can't stop.....
Most musicians I have known feel that playing a gig that went
great and sex
are their two favorite highs in life. With that in mind it is no wonder
that so many of
us keep practicing away waiting for that next great gig. When I was in
my 20's I was
going to get married and made a choice that after considering the
competition I just wasn't
enough of a player to make a living at it that would provide for a
family and opted to become
an electrical engineer. I later found out that not all graduated
engineers are creative souls
and having that creativity was a definite bonus. For me it all worked
out well because I had
bucks to pay the bills, played weekends etc.
Fastforwarding to almost 40 years later (yeah, I'm
there)...music has really changed
from when I was younger and eager to play. In fact, there is plenty
that I am not at all
excited about. Now IF I was playing to make a living I would be &quot;going
to work playing
music that I didn't really care about just to be playing the
instrument&quot;. I know a lot of
cats doing this because they have to and for them it's a drag. Having
made money as
an engineer has enabled me to pick and choose when and with who I will
play. So I
always am playing in a group whose music I really am excited about,
otherwise I
don't do it.
Well, just something else to consider. Hopefully with all the
responses you are
getting you'll find something that will help you with the choices you
make. I turned 18
in 1966 and also went to VietNam as the draft was a big deal then.
Those years coupled with college took away quite a few years. Time is
on your side. Use it wisely....and
yes, Have Fun!

Report this message

#27: Re: Audition expectations

Posted on 2006-07-20 23:09:23 by JC McNeil

&gt;From the time and lifestyle changes standpoint, I can see the point . .
for most people. Then, there are those who can have a lot of time on
their hands to play music later in life, whether by taking an early
retirement, cashing out a dot com just before the bust, or whatever,
and I think that just makes it depend. I think it is very possible to
become excellent later in life, though: if your lifestyle allows the
time and dedication the brains ability to learn is still there unless
you let it atrophy.

unknownguitarplayer wrote:
&gt; I have to agree with Paul K. You can learn an enormous amount later in
&gt; life, but it's rare that you'll have another chance to become totally
&gt; immersed in anything the way you can during those post-high school
&gt; years. As the realities of family, making a living and just living
&gt; life emerge, the possibility of spending 8-10 hours a day practicing
&gt; and playing every night becomes more and more remote.
&gt;
&gt; There's no age limit on getting through undergrad courses like
&gt; Psychobabble 101 or Constructive Deconstruction - you show up and do
&gt; what they tell you to do (re-read Pauls post telling you the general
&gt; undergrad courses are a waste of time and realize that he's a Professor
&gt; at a state university). If you're willing to do more and have some
&gt; aptitude, you can even get a Ph.D. in math or physics (honest!).
&gt;
&gt; But the process of really internalizing jazz is a daunting one that
&gt; takes time, as anyone here will tell you. And just putting in the time
&gt; doesn't even guarantee that it will happen (although not putting in the
&gt; time is a pretty good tell that it won't). during that process, you're
&gt; not just learning how to play, you're actually changing the way you
&gt; think. I don't pretend to know anything about how the brain works and
&gt; all the neural development business, but I'd guess that it gets tougher
&gt; to do that as the equipment ages.
&gt;
&gt; I guess what I'm saying is that you can make up for lost time in a lot
&gt; of things, but if you're talking about really digging in, music isn't
&gt; one of them.
&gt;
&gt; UGP
&gt;
&gt; Paul K wrote:
&gt; &gt; Greg West wrote:
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;What, you can't make a living doing gigs and teaching in college?
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; Time for the wake up call!
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; (lots of pessimistic but true stuff cut)
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; Greg West
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; There is another take: your college-age years are typically the last
&gt; &gt; time you have to learn something deep/meaningful/life lasting. even if
&gt; &gt; music doesnt work as a career, studying it when your mind is still
&gt; &gt; functional enough to allow you to improve means you'll be a much better
&gt; &gt; player than if you wait until you are in your 30s. If you are smart (and
&gt; &gt; if you love jazz, you are), you'll eventually find a way to support
&gt; &gt; yourself. IMHO, studying business or pre-law/pre med, engineering, or
&gt; &gt; any of the
&gt; &gt; career preparing majors is mostly a waste of a last oportunity, unless
&gt; &gt; you really arent into anything else
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Of course, this is all predicated on the idea that you have the
&gt; &gt; oportunity to study in a good program. Studying Jazz somewhere where the
&gt; &gt; faculty are mediocre is probalby a waste of money
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Paul K

Report this message

#28: Re: Audition expectations

Posted on 2006-07-20 23:12:17 by JC McNeil

I think the real point is, no matter what your age, if you want to
start playing seriously the right age to start is the age you are right
now.

JC McNeil wrote:
&gt; &gt;From the time and lifestyle changes standpoint, I can see the point . .
&gt; for most people. Then, there are those who can have a lot of time on
&gt; their hands to play music later in life, whether by taking an early
&gt; retirement, cashing out a dot com just before the bust, or whatever,
&gt; and I think that just makes it depend. I think it is very possible to
&gt; become excellent later in life, though: if your lifestyle allows the
&gt; time and dedication the brains ability to learn is still there unless
&gt; you let it atrophy.
&gt;
&gt; unknownguitarplayer wrote:
&gt; &gt; I have to agree with Paul K. You can learn an enormous amount later in
&gt; &gt; life, but it's rare that you'll have another chance to become totally
&gt; &gt; immersed in anything the way you can during those post-high school
&gt; &gt; years. As the realities of family, making a living and just living
&gt; &gt; life emerge, the possibility of spending 8-10 hours a day practicing
&gt; &gt; and playing every night becomes more and more remote.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; There's no age limit on getting through undergrad courses like
&gt; &gt; Psychobabble 101 or Constructive Deconstruction - you show up and do
&gt; &gt; what they tell you to do (re-read Pauls post telling you the general
&gt; &gt; undergrad courses are a waste of time and realize that he's a Professor
&gt; &gt; at a state university). If you're willing to do more and have some
&gt; &gt; aptitude, you can even get a Ph.D. in math or physics (honest!).
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; But the process of really internalizing jazz is a daunting one that
&gt; &gt; takes time, as anyone here will tell you. And just putting in the time
&gt; &gt; doesn't even guarantee that it will happen (although not putting in the
&gt; &gt; time is a pretty good tell that it won't). during that process, you're
&gt; &gt; not just learning how to play, you're actually changing the way you
&gt; &gt; think. I don't pretend to know anything about how the brain works and
&gt; &gt; all the neural development business, but I'd guess that it gets tougher
&gt; &gt; to do that as the equipment ages.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; I guess what I'm saying is that you can make up for lost time in a lot
&gt; &gt; of things, but if you're talking about really digging in, music isn't
&gt; &gt; one of them.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; UGP
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Paul K wrote:
&gt; &gt; &gt; Greg West wrote:
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;What, you can't make a living doing gigs and teaching in college?
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Time for the wake up call!
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; (lots of pessimistic but true stuff cut)
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Greg West
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; There is another take: your college-age years are typically the last
&gt; &gt; &gt; time you have to learn something deep/meaningful/life lasting. even if
&gt; &gt; &gt; music doesnt work as a career, studying it when your mind is still
&gt; &gt; &gt; functional enough to allow you to improve means you'll be a much better
&gt; &gt; &gt; player than if you wait until you are in your 30s. If you are smart (and
&gt; &gt; &gt; if you love jazz, you are), you'll eventually find a way to support
&gt; &gt; &gt; yourself. IMHO, studying business or pre-law/pre med, engineering, or
&gt; &gt; &gt; any of the
&gt; &gt; &gt; career preparing majors is mostly a waste of a last oportunity, unless
&gt; &gt; &gt; you really arent into anything else
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; Of course, this is all predicated on the idea that you have the
&gt; &gt; &gt; oportunity to study in a good program. Studying Jazz somewhere where the
&gt; &gt; &gt; faculty are mediocre is probalby a waste of money
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; Paul K

Report this message

#29: Re: Audition expectations

Posted on 2006-07-20 23:14:44 by bob r

The most important rewards involved in playing music don't have anything to
do with money or security. If you go into music primarily motivated by money
or security, you're in for trouble. On the other hand, if you can play your
instrument well, if you are the kind of person that other people don't mind
being around for long stretches of time and if you can always take care of
business when necessary, you will almost always have a gig of some kind,
somewhere. Anyone I've ever known who has had continual trouble keeping work
has always had problems in one or more of those three areas.
--
Bob Russell
Web - <a href="http://www.bobrussellguitar.com" target="_blank">http://www.bobrussellguitar.com</a>
CDs - <a href="http://www.cdbaby.com/all/bobrussell" target="_blank">http://www.cdbaby.com/all/bobrussell</a>
Soundclick - <a href="http://www.soundclick.com/bobrussell" target="_blank">http://www.soundclick.com/bobrussell</a>

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#30: Re: Audition expectations

Posted on 2006-07-21 00:34:54 by pscohn

bob r wrote:
&gt; The most important rewards involved in playing music don't have anything to
&gt; do with money or security. If you go into music primarily motivated by money
&gt; or security, you're in for trouble. On the other hand, if you can play your
&gt; instrument well, if you are the kind of person that other people don't mind
&gt; being around for long stretches of time and if you can always take care of
&gt; business when necessary, you will almost always have a gig of some kind,
&gt; somewhere. Anyone I've ever known who has had continual trouble keeping work
&gt; has always had problems in one or more of those three areas.



I'm not going to music at all for money reasons, in fact that's the
only thing that I'm worried about. Suppose I've just finished a masters
degree or something at a college in jazz studies or composition or
something, and I move to new york or if I'm in a college there I get my
own place. How could I get gigs/jobs or anything enough to make money
to live off of? I'm pretty sure I can do well with guitar, but even if
I can get gigs at all the best jazz clubs there are only so many of
them, I can't just keep getting gigs at the same ones, can I? And how
could I get a position at a college? Or just ANYTHING that I can live
on. I know that if I figure out how I can manange to live off of music
I'll do it.

Report this message

#31: Re: Audition expectations

Posted on 2006-07-21 00:53:47 by Ray

Paul wrote:
&gt; I'm not going to music at all for money reasons, in fact that's the
&gt; only thing that I'm worried about. Suppose I've just finished a masters
&gt; degree or something at a college in jazz studies or composition or
&gt; something, and I move to new york or if I'm in a college there I get my
&gt; own place. How could I get gigs/jobs or anything enough to make money
&gt; to live off of? I'm pretty sure I can do well with guitar, but even if
&gt; I can get gigs at all the best jazz clubs there are only so many of
&gt; them, I can't just keep getting gigs at the same ones, can I? And how
&gt; could I get a position at a college? Or just ANYTHING that I can live
&gt; on. I know that if I figure out how I can manange to live off of music
&gt; I'll do it.
&gt;

How to you feel you compare to your peers in the big bands and combos at
your high school? What are your strengths? Part of getting gigs or a
position at a college will be creating relationships with other
musicians at school, teachers and others in the surrounding community.
There will be an elements of salesmanship and networking involved in
your success. Being a great player isn't always enough.

Ray

Report this message

#32: Re: Audition expectations

Posted on 2006-07-21 01:07:51 by sean

On 7/20/06 3:34 PM, in article
<a href="mailto:1153434894.462834.192540&#64;75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1153434894.462834.192540&#64;75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com</a>, &quot;Paul&quot;
&lt;<a href="mailto:pscohn&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">pscohn&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;
&gt; bob r wrote:
&gt;&gt; The most important rewards involved in playing music don't have anything to
&gt;&gt; do with money or security. If you go into music primarily motivated by money
&gt;&gt; or security, you're in for trouble. On the other hand, if you can play your
&gt;&gt; instrument well, if you are the kind of person that other people don't mind
&gt;&gt; being around for long stretches of time and if you can always take care of
&gt;&gt; business when necessary, you will almost always have a gig of some kind,
&gt;&gt; somewhere. Anyone I've ever known who has had continual trouble keeping work
&gt;&gt; has always had problems in one or more of those three areas.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; I'm not going to music at all for money reasons, in fact that's the
&gt; only thing that I'm worried about. Suppose I've just finished a masters
&gt; degree or something at a college in jazz studies or composition or
&gt; something, and I move to new york or if I'm in a college there I get my
&gt; own place. How could I get gigs/jobs or anything enough to make money
&gt; to live off of? I'm pretty sure I can do well with guitar, but even if
&gt; I can get gigs at all the best jazz clubs there are only so many of
&gt; them, I can't just keep getting gigs at the same ones, can I? And how
&gt; could I get a position at a college? Or just ANYTHING that I can live
&gt; on. I know that if I figure out how I can manange to live off of music
&gt; I'll do it.
&gt;

One guy I know that makes his living entirely from music combines a number
of gigs that he hustled to get: He has a quartet that's the house band at a
fancy bar in a fancy hotel. He has a variety of other bands that come
together for gigs that come up: conventions, festivals, stuff like that. And
he is a band teacher in a high school.
Come to think of it, I know a couple of guys doing that. They combine the
school band teaching with all sorts of other gigs. Hustle, hustle, hustle.
They live decent middle class lives, but they got there by hustling and
hustling and always checking out the opportunities. And sure, sometimes they
play in the pit for some musical or other that isn't their favourite thing,
but they're making a living with music, which I think is a fantastic
accomplishment.

Report this message

#33: Re: Audition expectations

Posted on 2006-07-21 01:22:53 by pscohn

ray wrote:
&gt; How to you feel you compare to your peers in the big bands and combos at
&gt; your high school? What are your strengths? Part of getting gigs or a
&gt; position at a college will be creating relationships with other
&gt; musicians at school, teachers and others in the surrounding community.
&gt; There will be an elements of salesmanship and networking involved in
&gt; your success. Being a great player isn't always enough.
&gt;
&gt; Ray


My school has a really great guitar department. it has guitar 1, 2, a
classical guitar ensemble, an advanced ensemble, and the jazz guitar
combo, which has ten guitars and bass, drums, and keys. the jazz combo,
which i'm in, does all sorts of great gigs; we've done retirement
ceremonies for our school district, we've played for it's academic a
couple times, a local high school game show on nbc, and this past year
we did a retirement ceremony for the president of the Citadel and a
mentor association gala thing at the willard hotel in dc. it's been
great experience for performing and hopefully i'll be able to get gigs
like these and better on my own someday. in my school now i'm the best
guitarist, but i don't know how i compare to people in the band
department - i don't really like the department/faculty. i heard a
couple solos at a festival in chicago we all went to for spring trip
that didn't seem so great. i actually won a nice outstanding soloist
award there, but one of the solos i played was a transcription of chris
buzzelli (faculty at bowling green state university, the guy who writes
a lot of the guitar combo music we play).

Phew, i know nobody asked for any of that info but i just had to tell
SOMEONE. but I think i can be good at the salemanship/networking with a
little practice.

Sean wrote:
&gt;And sure, sometimes they
&gt;play in the pit for some musical or other that isn't their favourite thing,
&gt;but they're making a living with music, which I think is a fantastic
&gt;accomplishment.

I would love to play in the pit for a musical, I don't know why. But
how do you get jobs like that, or at fancy hotels or something? I'm
sure I can do that kind of stuff, but I don't know how to find those
kind of opportunities.

Report this message

#34: Re: Audition expectations

Posted on 2006-07-21 01:49:41 by Joey Goldstein

Paul wrote:
&gt; bob r wrote:
&gt;&gt; The most important rewards involved in playing music don't have anything to
&gt;&gt; do with money or security. If you go into music primarily motivated by money
&gt;&gt; or security, you're in for trouble. On the other hand, if you can play your
&gt;&gt; instrument well, if you are the kind of person that other people don't mind
&gt;&gt; being around for long stretches of time and if you can always take care of
&gt;&gt; business when necessary, you will almost always have a gig of some kind,
&gt;&gt; somewhere. Anyone I've ever known who has had continual trouble keeping work
&gt;&gt; has always had problems in one or more of those three areas.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; I'm not going to music at all for money reasons, in fact that's the
&gt; only thing that I'm worried about. Suppose I've just finished a masters
&gt; degree or something at a college in jazz studies or composition or
&gt; something, and I move to new york or if I'm in a college there I get my
&gt; own place. How could I get gigs/jobs or anything enough to make money
&gt; to live off of? I'm pretty sure I can do well with guitar, but even if
&gt; I can get gigs at all the best jazz clubs there are only so many of
&gt; them, I can't just keep getting gigs at the same ones, can I? And how
&gt; could I get a position at a college? Or just ANYTHING that I can live
&gt; on. I know that if I figure out how I can manange to live off of music
&gt; I'll do it.
&gt;

If you really want to play you'll find some way to make it all work.
As far as bread and butter gigs go there's not nearly as many of them
now as there used to be. But there's still:
Cruise ships
Orchestra pit work
Sessions (there's not many, but there's still some out there, or so I'm
told)
Teaching in music stores and privately
Playing casuals
Selling books and CD's off the Internet
Working in a music store
Working as a music manufacturer's rep
Being a copyist or arranger
Etc.

Teaching jazz at the college level is usually done on a word of mouth
basis, not based on academic achievements. The head of the jazz music
department at the University Of Toronto, probably Canada's's most
prestigious school for jazz, doesn't have a degree. I'm pretty sure he
doesn't even have his Bachelor's Degree.
Having a degree might help your rate of pay though if you do get a
college teaching gig.

Jazz won't pay the bills unless you get an international career, and
even then it'll be dicey unless you're really well-known and really popular.

--
Joey Goldstein
<a href="http://www.joeygoldstein.com" target="_blank">http://www.joeygoldstein.com</a>
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

Report this message

#35: Re: Audition expectations

Posted on 2006-07-21 01:50:52 by Joey Goldstein

Paul wrote:
&gt; ray wrote:
&gt;&gt; How to you feel you compare to your peers in the big bands and combos at
&gt;&gt; your high school? What are your strengths? Part of getting gigs or a
&gt;&gt; position at a college will be creating relationships with other
&gt;&gt; musicians at school, teachers and others in the surrounding community.
&gt;&gt; There will be an elements of salesmanship and networking involved in
&gt;&gt; your success. Being a great player isn't always enough.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Ray
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; My school has a really great guitar department. it has guitar 1, 2, a
&gt; classical guitar ensemble, an advanced ensemble, and the jazz guitar
&gt; combo, which has ten guitars and bass, drums, and keys. the jazz combo,
&gt; which i'm in, does all sorts of great gigs; we've done retirement
&gt; ceremonies for our school district, we've played for it's academic a
&gt; couple times, a local high school game show on nbc, and this past year
&gt; we did a retirement ceremony for the president of the Citadel and a
&gt; mentor association gala thing at the willard hotel in dc. it's been
&gt; great experience for performing and hopefully i'll be able to get gigs
&gt; like these and better on my own someday. in my school now i'm the best
&gt; guitarist, but i don't know how i compare to people in the band
&gt; department - i don't really like the department/faculty. i heard a
&gt; couple solos at a festival in chicago we all went to for spring trip
&gt; that didn't seem so great. i actually won a nice outstanding soloist
&gt; award there, but one of the solos i played was a transcription of chris
&gt; buzzelli (faculty at bowling green state university, the guy who writes
&gt; a lot of the guitar combo music we play).
&gt;
&gt; Phew, i know nobody asked for any of that info but i just had to tell
&gt; SOMEONE. but I think i can be good at the salemanship/networking with a
&gt; little practice.
&gt;
&gt; Sean wrote:
&gt;&gt; And sure, sometimes they
&gt;&gt; play in the pit for some musical or other that isn't their favourite thing,
&gt;&gt; but they're making a living with music, which I think is a fantastic
&gt;&gt; accomplishment.
&gt;
&gt; I would love to play in the pit for a musical, I don't know why. But
&gt; how do you get jobs like that, or at fancy hotels or something? I'm
&gt; sure I can do that kind of stuff, but I don't know how to find those
&gt; kind of opportunities.
&gt;

Word of mouth.

--
Joey Goldstein
<a href="http://www.joeygoldstein.com" target="_blank">http://www.joeygoldstein.com</a>
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

Report this message

#36: Re: Audition expectations

Posted on 2006-07-21 02:16:34 by pscohn

Joey Goldstein wrote:
&gt; If you really want to play you'll find some way to make it all work.
&gt; As far as bread and butter gigs go there's not nearly as many of them
&gt; now as there used to be. But there's still:
&gt; Cruise ships
&gt; Orchestra pit work
&gt; Sessions (there's not many, but there's still some out there, or so I'm
&gt; told)
&gt; Teaching in music stores and privately
&gt; Playing casuals
&gt; Selling books and CD's off the Internet
&gt; Working in a music store
&gt; Working as a music manufacturer's rep
&gt; Being a copyist or arranger
&gt; Etc.
&gt;

I'd probably love to do all of that. a few questions - what are
casuals? and a music manufacturer's rep? can you get those kinds of
jobs without a degree in that specific field? and how can you get
paying jobs being a copyist or arranger? where do people employ them,
and what kind of degree/skills do you need?




&gt; Teaching jazz at the college level is usually done on a word of mouth
&gt; basis, not based on academic achievements. The head of the jazz music
&gt; department at the University Of Toronto, probably Canada's's most
&gt; prestigious school for jazz, doesn't have a degree. I'm pretty sure he
&gt; doesn't even have his Bachelor's Degree.
&gt; Having a degree might help your rate of pay though if you do get a
&gt; college teaching gig.


What do you mean by word of mouth? Who's word, which mouth? how can you
get a good word of mouth, especially for teaching college in new york?

Thanks,
Paul C

Report this message

#37: Re: Audition expectations

Posted on 2006-07-21 23:53:13 by pscohn

Paul wrote:
&gt; Joey Goldstein wrote:
&gt; &gt; If you really want to play you'll find some way to make it all work.
&gt; &gt; As far as bread and butter gigs go there's not nearly as many of them
&gt; &gt; now as there used to be. But there's still:
&gt; &gt; Cruise ships
&gt; &gt; Orchestra pit work
&gt; &gt; Sessions (there's not many, but there's still some out there, or so I'm
&gt; &gt; told)
&gt; &gt; Teaching in music stores and privately
&gt; &gt; Playing casuals
&gt; &gt; Selling books and CD's off the Internet
&gt; &gt; Working in a music store
&gt; &gt; Working as a music manufacturer's rep
&gt; &gt; Being a copyist or arranger
&gt; &gt; Etc.


And also, how can you manage to get any of these kind of jobs or just
regular gigs and pay off the first months rent and afterwards and costs
of living when you've just moved to a city like nyc?

Report this message

#38: Re: Audition expectations

Posted on 2006-07-22 01:29:27 by sean

On 7/21/06 2:53 PM, in article
<a href="mailto:1153518784.115490.259220&#64;s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1153518784.115490.259220&#64;s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com</a>, &quot;Paul&quot;
&lt;<a href="mailto:pscohn&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">pscohn&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;
&gt; Paul wrote:
&gt;&gt; Joey Goldstein wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt; If you really want to play you'll find some way to make it all work.
&gt;&gt;&gt; As far as bread and butter gigs go there's not nearly as many of them
&gt;&gt;&gt; now as there used to be. But there's still:
&gt;&gt;&gt; Cruise ships
&gt;&gt;&gt; Orchestra pit work
&gt;&gt;&gt; Sessions (there's not many, but there's still some out there, or so I'm
&gt;&gt;&gt; told)
&gt;&gt;&gt; Teaching in music stores and privately
&gt;&gt;&gt; Playing casuals
&gt;&gt;&gt; Selling books and CD's off the Internet
&gt;&gt;&gt; Working in a music store
&gt;&gt;&gt; Working as a music manufacturer's rep
&gt;&gt;&gt; Being a copyist or arranger
&gt;&gt;&gt; Etc.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; And also, how can you manage to get any of these kind of jobs or just
&gt; regular gigs and pay off the first months rent and afterwards and costs
&gt; of living when you've just moved to a city like nyc?
&gt;

You start off working as a waiter or a drywaller's helper or something like
that. You do this when you are young so that, even after a day of
backbreaking manual labour, you still have the energy to hustle around doing
whatever it takes to meet whom you need to meet and so on.

Report this message

#39: Re: Audition expectations

Posted on 2006-07-22 06:36:40 by Joey Goldstein

Paul wrote:
&gt; Joey Goldstein wrote:
&gt;&gt; If you really want to play you'll find some way to make it all work.
&gt;&gt; As far as bread and butter gigs go there's not nearly as many of them
&gt;&gt; now as there used to be. But there's still:
&gt;&gt; Cruise ships
&gt;&gt; Orchestra pit work
&gt;&gt; Sessions (there's not many, but there's still some out there, or so I'm
&gt;&gt; told)
&gt;&gt; Teaching in music stores and privately
&gt;&gt; Playing casuals
&gt;&gt; Selling books and CD's off the Internet
&gt;&gt; Working in a music store
&gt;&gt; Working as a music manufacturer's rep
&gt;&gt; Being a copyist or arranger
&gt;&gt; Etc.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt; I'd probably love to do all of that. a few questions - what are
&gt; casuals?

Weddings, Bar Mitzvahs, private parties.

&gt; and a music manufacturer's rep?

Eg. Demonstrating Yamaha Music's products at music stores or trade shows.

&gt; can you get those kinds of
&gt; jobs without a degree in that specific field?

Most jobs in music have nothing to do with degrees.

&gt; and how can you get
&gt; paying jobs being a copyist

Become a good copyist and let people would need stuff copied know that
you're available to do it.

&gt; or arranger?

Same as above.

&gt; where do people employ them,
&gt; and what kind of degree/skills do you need?

It sounds like you are really, really, really green.
You should spend a few years studying privately and hanging out with
musicians in your area. IMO.



--
Joey Goldstein
<a href="http://www.joeygoldstein.com" target="_blank">http://www.joeygoldstein.com</a>
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

Report this message

#40: Re: Audition expectations

Posted on 2006-07-22 06:37:11 by Joey Goldstein

Paul wrote:
&gt; Paul wrote:
&gt;&gt; Joey Goldstein wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt; If you really want to play you'll find some way to make it all work.
&gt;&gt;&gt; As far as bread and butter gigs go there's not nearly as many of them
&gt;&gt;&gt; now as there used to be. But there's still:
&gt;&gt;&gt; Cruise ships
&gt;&gt;&gt; Orchestra pit work
&gt;&gt;&gt; Sessions (there's not many, but there's still some out there, or so I'm
&gt;&gt;&gt; told)
&gt;&gt;&gt; Teaching in music stores and privately
&gt;&gt;&gt; Playing casuals
&gt;&gt;&gt; Selling books and CD's off the Internet
&gt;&gt;&gt; Working in a music store
&gt;&gt;&gt; Working as a music manufacturer's rep
&gt;&gt;&gt; Being a copyist or arranger
&gt;&gt;&gt; Etc.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; And also, how can you manage to get any of these kind of jobs or just
&gt; regular gigs and pay off the first months rent and afterwards and costs
&gt; of living when you've just moved to a city like nyc?
&gt;

Err, umm, ...Take some money with you.

--
Joey Goldstein
<a href="http://www.joeygoldstein.com" target="_blank">http://www.joeygoldstein.com</a>
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

Report this message

#41: Re: Audition expectations

Posted on 2006-07-22 06:44:48 by pscohn

Joey Goldstein wrote:
&gt; It sounds like you are really, really, really green.
&gt; You should spend a few years studying privately and hanging out with
&gt; musicians in your area. IMO.


I don't know what you mean by green, but I'm just a high school student
planning on going to college next year doing jazz studies. Just
planning ahead for my future.

Report this message

#42: Re: Audition expectations

Posted on 2006-07-22 07:09:30 by Joey Goldstein

Paul wrote:
&gt; Joey Goldstein wrote:
&gt;&gt; It sounds like you are really, really, really green.
&gt;&gt; You should spend a few years studying privately and hanging out with
&gt;&gt; musicians in your area. IMO.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; I don't know what you mean by green, but I'm just a high school student
&gt; planning on going to college next year doing jazz studies. Just
&gt; planning ahead for my future.
&gt;

What makes you think that you have what it takes to be a professional
player?
Have you been doing gigs?
What types of advice have the local professional players that you hang
out with in your area been giving you?

What schools have you applied to again?
Usually, the auditions are in May or June and you'd know by now if you
were accepted or not.
Usually before someone applies to go to study music full-time at a music
school they've already spent a lot of time thinking about the types of
things that you're asking here.

Now, for me, it was a bit different.
I knew by Grade 12 (we had Grade 13 at the time in Canada...see below)
that I didn't really want to have any sort of a normal job, and I was
already a pretty good guitar player in some ways. But I'd only done a
couple of really small gigs.
[I had a band with Lorne Lofsky called The Rancidity Blues Band (I was
the front man/singer.) We played Forest Hill Junior High's summer break
party, and Brian Worth's Bar Mitzvah.]

I met a girl that winter from Boston when I was on vacation in Florida
and she told me about a music school where you could study popular
music, Berklee.

So after Grade 12 me and my drummer friend (Ted Rosnick..the big Toronto
jingle producer) enrolled in Berklee's Summer Evaluation Clinic. It's a
7 week summer course where you get a chance to check out the school and
they get a chance to check you out.

I knew after that summer what I was going to do after Grade 13.
[The drag was that Berklee didn't need me to have Grade 13 so I could
have gone there a year earlier. I had a real bad attitude my last year
of high school and had to go to summer school that summer. What a drag.
I was a lousy kid.]

So, during the years that I was in Grades 12 and 13 I did all the stuff
that *you* need to do before you think about going to a full-time music
school. I.e Look into it first. Then apply. Sounds like you've planned
to apply first and then look into it.

--
Joey Goldstein
<a href="http://www.joeygoldstein.com" target="_blank">http://www.joeygoldstein.com</a>
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

Report this message

#43: Re: Audition expectations

Posted on 2006-07-22 07:37:04 by pscohn

Joey Goldstein wrote:
&gt; What makes you think that you have what it takes to be a professional
&gt; player?

I'm a talented/motivated/ambitious musician with a lot of potential.
I'm the best guitarist in my school and I know I can someday be as good
as many of the professionals and professors out there. I want not just
to be a player but a composer, professor, anything I can do.

&gt; Have you been doing gigs?

I've done some, not as much as I'd like to. I do a lot of gigs with my
school's jazz guitar program. Later this summer I'm going to be putting
together a jazz-funk sort of group with a violinist and we'll start
gigging more.

&gt; What types of advice have the local professional players that you hang
&gt; out with in your area been giving you?

There really aren't local professional players here, at least none that
I hang out with. I've had private lessons and am about to get a new
teacher.

&gt; What schools have you applied to again?

I haven't applied anywhere yet. I'm planning on applying to university
of miami, of north texas, purchase, and a couple smaller programs as
backups.


&gt; Usually, the auditions are in May or June and you'd know by now if you
&gt; were accepted or not.
&gt; Usually before someone applies to go to study music full-time at a music
&gt; school they've already spent a lot of time thinking about the types of
&gt; things that you're asking here.

The auditions are going to be this next winter. I haven't even started
my senior year yet so I haven't applied or auditioned yet. And don't
think I haven't thought about all this, it's consumed my thoughts for a
while.


&gt; Now, for me, it was a bit different.
&gt; I knew by Grade 12 (we had Grade 13 at the time in Canada...see below)
&gt; that I didn't really want to have any sort of a normal job, and I was
&gt; already a pretty good guitar player in some ways. But I'd only done a
&gt; couple of really small gigs.
&gt; [I had a band with Lorne Lofsky called The Rancidity Blues Band (I was
&gt; the front man/singer.) We played Forest Hill Junior High's summer break
&gt; party, and Brian Worth's Bar Mitzvah.]
&gt;
&gt; I met a girl that winter from Boston when I was on vacation in Florida
&gt; and she told me about a music school where you could study popular
&gt; music, Berklee.
&gt;
&gt; So after Grade 12 me and my drummer friend (Ted Rosnick..the big Toronto
&gt; jingle producer) enrolled in Berklee's Summer Evaluation Clinic. It's a
&gt; 7 week summer course where you get a chance to check out the school and
&gt; they get a chance to check you out.
&gt;
&gt; I knew after that summer what I was going to do after Grade 13.
&gt; [The drag was that Berklee didn't need me to have Grade 13 so I could
&gt; have gone there a year earlier. I had a real bad attitude my last year
&gt; of high school and had to go to summer school that summer. What a drag.
&gt; I was a lousy kid.]
&gt;
&gt; So, during the years that I was in Grades 12 and 13 I did all the stuff
&gt; that *you* need to do before you think about going to a full-time music
&gt; school. I.e Look into it first. Then apply. Sounds like you've planned
&gt; to apply first and then look into it.

So, what do *I* need to do that you assume *I* haven't done or thought
about already? Don't assume I'm going into this carelessly. Why else
would I be questioning everyone about every specific of making a living
in music? I just want to do everything I can to plan ahead and make
sure I can survive.

Report this message

#44: Re: Audition expectations

Posted on 2006-07-22 09:40:58 by Joey Goldstein

Paul wrote:
&gt; Joey Goldstein wrote:
&gt;&gt; What makes you think that you have what it takes to be a professional
&gt;&gt; player?
&gt;
&gt; I'm a talented/motivated/ambitious musician with a lot of potential.
&gt; I'm the best guitarist in my school and I know I can someday be as good
&gt; as many of the professionals and professors out there. I want not just
&gt; to be a player but a composer, professor, anything I can do.
&gt;
&gt;&gt; Have you been doing gigs?
&gt;
&gt; I've done some, not as much as I'd like to. I do a lot of gigs with my
&gt; school's jazz guitar program. Later this summer I'm going to be putting
&gt; together a jazz-funk sort of group with a violinist and we'll start
&gt; gigging more.
&gt;
&gt;&gt; What types of advice have the local professional players that you hang
&gt;&gt; out with in your area been giving you?
&gt;
&gt; There really aren't local professional players here, at least none that
&gt; I hang out with. I've had private lessons and am about to get a new
&gt; teacher.
&gt;
&gt;&gt; What schools have you applied to again?
&gt;
&gt; I haven't applied anywhere yet. I'm planning on applying to university
&gt; of miami, of north texas, purchase, and a couple smaller programs as
&gt; backups.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt; Usually, the auditions are in May or June and you'd know by now if you
&gt;&gt; were accepted or not.
&gt;&gt; Usually before someone applies to go to study music full-time at a music
&gt;&gt; school they've already spent a lot of time thinking about the types of
&gt;&gt; things that you're asking here.
&gt;
&gt; The auditions are going to be this next winter. I haven't even started
&gt; my senior year yet so I haven't applied or auditioned yet. And don't
&gt; think I haven't thought about all this, it's consumed my thoughts for a
&gt; while.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt; Now, for me, it was a bit different.
&gt;&gt; I knew by Grade 12 (we had Grade 13 at the time in Canada...see below)
&gt;&gt; that I didn't really want to have any sort of a normal job, and I was
&gt;&gt; already a pretty good guitar player in some ways. But I'd only done a
&gt;&gt; couple of really small gigs.
&gt;&gt; [I had a band with Lorne Lofsky called The Rancidity Blues Band (I was
&gt;&gt; the front man/singer.) We played Forest Hill Junior High's summer break
&gt;&gt; party, and Brian Worth's Bar Mitzvah.]
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; I met a girl that winter from Boston when I was on vacation in Florida
&gt;&gt; and she told me about a music school where you could study popular
&gt;&gt; music, Berklee.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; So after Grade 12 me and my drummer friend (Ted Rosnick..the big Toronto
&gt;&gt; jingle producer) enrolled in Berklee's Summer Evaluation Clinic. It's a
&gt;&gt; 7 week summer course where you get a chance to check out the school and
&gt;&gt; they get a chance to check you out.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; I knew after that summer what I was going to do after Grade 13.
&gt;&gt; [The drag was that Berklee didn't need me to have Grade 13 so I could
&gt;&gt; have gone there a year earlier. I had a real bad attitude my last year
&gt;&gt; of high school and had to go to summer school that summer. What a drag.
&gt;&gt; I was a lousy kid.]
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; So, during the years that I was in Grades 12 and 13 I did all the stuff
&gt;&gt; that *you* need to do before you think about going to a full-time music
&gt;&gt; school. I.e Look into it first. Then apply. Sounds like you've planned
&gt;&gt; to apply first and then look into it.
&gt;
&gt; So, what do *I* need to do that you assume *I* haven't done or thought
&gt; about already? Don't assume I'm going into this carelessly. Why else
&gt; would I be questioning everyone about every specific of making a living
&gt; in music? I just want to do everything I can to plan ahead and make
&gt; sure I can survive.
&gt;

Sorry. I misunderstood. I thought you were planning on starting this Fall.
Good luck.

--
Joey Goldstein
<a href="http://www.joeygoldstein.com" target="_blank">http://www.joeygoldstein.com</a>
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

Report this message

#45: Re: Audition expectations

Posted on 2006-07-22 15:01:20 by Tone

Paul wrote:
&gt; Joey Goldstein wrote:
&gt; &gt; What makes you think that you have what it takes to be a professional
&gt; &gt; player?
&gt;
&gt; I'm a talented/motivated/ambitious musician with a lot of potential.
&gt; I'm the best guitarist in my school and I know I can someday be as good
&gt; as many of the professionals and professors out there. I want not just
&gt; to be a player but a composer, professor, anything I can do.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; Have you been doing gigs?
&gt;
&gt; I've done some, not as much as I'd like to. I do a lot of gigs with my
&gt; school's jazz guitar program. Later this summer I'm going to be putting
&gt; together a jazz-funk sort of group with a violinist and we'll start
&gt; gigging more.
&gt;

Maybe you'd feel more confident about surviving as a musician after
doing more of this kind of thing. A lot of &quot;surviving&quot; is going to be
about how much of a hustler you are no matter how talented you are.
Here's a couple of talented, guitar players from NYC who've been doing
it for years, and their slightly humorous takes on it:
<a href="http://www.steelydan.com/postkrantz.html" target="_blank">http://www.steelydan.com/postkrantz.html</a>
<a href="http://www.brucesaunders.com/journal.html" target="_blank">http://www.brucesaunders.com/journal.html</a> (teaches at Berklee too)

Get as many gigs on your own playing with people you like for as much
money as you can possibly get this year, to get real a feel for it. Or
whatever kind of gigs you are interested in, arranging, copying,
teaching guitar or any other type of musical endeavor. Its all about
dealing with people - other players, potential employers, students. No
one will come knocking at your door or calling you for your services at
any of these things w/o at least some initial hustle on your part.
Thats what it will boil down to for you as a professional making a
living so by starting it now you can see if you have knack or at least
tolerance for it.

And also talk to any and all musicians you know. At least your new and
old music teachers... about their lives, their various income sources,
how they've put together a living. Ask what they might imagine you
doing in the future. Pay attention because they know you better than
anybody out here in electronville and if they say you should take up
bass or think seriously about a double major or will have no problem
and dont even need to bother with school, or whatever... it probably is
better advice than you're going to get asking complete strangers.

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#46: Re: Audition expectations

Posted on 2006-07-23 00:52:01 by pscohn

Tone wrote:
&gt; Paul wrote:
&gt; &gt; Joey Goldstein wrote:
&gt; &gt; &gt; What makes you think that you have what it takes to be a professional
&gt; &gt; &gt; player?
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; I'm a talented/motivated/ambitious musician with a lot of potential.
&gt; &gt; I'm the best guitarist in my school and I know I can someday be as good
&gt; &gt; as many of the professionals and professors out there. I want not just
&gt; &gt; to be a player but a composer, professor, anything I can do.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; Have you been doing gigs?
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; I've done some, not as much as I'd like to. I do a lot of gigs with my
&gt; &gt; school's jazz guitar program. Later this summer I'm going to be putting
&gt; &gt; together a jazz-funk sort of group with a violinist and we'll start
&gt; &gt; gigging more.
&gt; &gt;
&gt;
&gt; Maybe you'd feel more confident about surviving as a musician after
&gt; doing more of this kind of thing. A lot of &quot;surviving&quot; is going to be
&gt; about how much of a hustler you are no matter how talented you are.
&gt; Here's a couple of talented, guitar players from NYC who've been doing
&gt; it for years, and their slightly humorous takes on it:
&gt; <a href="http://www.steelydan.com/postkrantz.html" target="_blank">http://www.steelydan.com/postkrantz.html</a>
&gt; <a href="http://www.brucesaunders.com/journal.html" target="_blank">http://www.brucesaunders.com/journal.html</a> (teaches at Berklee too)
&gt;
&gt; Get as many gigs on your own playing with people you like for as much
&gt; money as you can possibly get this year, to get real a feel for it. Or
&gt; whatever kind of gigs you are interested in, arranging, copying,
&gt; teaching guitar or any other type of musical endeavor. Its all about
&gt; dealing with people - other players, potential employers, students. No
&gt; one will come knocking at your door or calling you for your services at
&gt; any of these things w/o at least some initial hustle on your part.
&gt; Thats what it will boil down to for you as a professional making a
&gt; living so by starting it now you can see if you have knack or at least
&gt; tolerance for it.
&gt;
&gt; And also talk to any and all musicians you know. At least your new and
&gt; old music teachers... about their lives, their various income sources,
&gt; how they've put together a living. Ask what they might imagine you
&gt; doing in the future. Pay attention because they know you better than
&gt; anybody out here in electronville and if they say you should take up
&gt; bass or think seriously about a double major or will have no problem
&gt; and dont even need to bother with school, or whatever... it probably is
&gt; better advice than you're going to get asking complete strangers.

Thanks for the input. I've got some lessons coming up in a while with a
local teacher who's supposed to be awesome at jazz guitar, hopefully
I'll get a good perspective from him.

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