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#1: ES 175 Setup Questions

Posted on 2006-06-05 16:56:29 by phil

Hi:

I have a '66 ES 175 that feels a bit stiff to me lately (I've been
playing my Tele too much!). Any suggestions for string brand/gauge or
adjustments? I'm using D'Addario Chrome 12s at the moment (not wedded
to them by any means).

Thanks

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#2: Re: ES 175 Setup Questions

Posted on 2006-06-05 17:36:30 by Joey Goldstein

Phil wrote:
> Hi:
>
> I have a '66 ES 175 that feels a bit stiff to me lately (I've been
> playing my Tele too much!). Any suggestions for string brand/gauge or
> adjustments? I'm using D'Addario Chrome 12s at the moment (not wedded
> to them by any means).
>
> Thanks
>

With the 175's shorter scale length it should feel less stiff than a
Tele, assuming you're using the same string gauges on both. But you're
probably using light strings on the Tele.

I use the .012 Chromes on my Samick HF-650 which has similar dimensions
to a 175 and they're fine. Every once in a while they slip in a G string
that not fully polished and sound/feels more like a half-round, but
other than that they're great. You probably need a seasonal truss-rod
adjustment and action adjustment (maybe the not slot heights need to be
adjusted as well). If you don't know how to do it yourself, take it to a
pro and ask him if he'll teach you how to do it yourself. Most guitars
need a truss adjustment at least 2 times a year, depending on the
climate in your area.

If you switch from the .012's to another gauge you'll definitely need a
truss-rod adjustment and set-up. If you initially switched from some
other gauge to the .012's you will have needed a set-up at that point too.

--
Joey Goldstein
<a href="http://www.joeygoldstein.com" target="_blank">http://www.joeygoldstein.com</a>
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

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#3: Re: ES 175 Setup Questions

Posted on 2006-06-05 18:00:53 by dunlop212

&gt; &gt; I have a '66 ES 175 that feels a bit stiff to me lately (I've been
&gt; &gt; playing my Tele too much!). Any suggestions for string brand/gauge or
&gt; &gt; adjustments? I'm using D'Addario Chrome 12s at the moment (not wedded
&gt; &gt; to them by any means).

Switch to TIs. Significantly less stiff than chromes.

Report this message

#4: Re: ES 175 Setup Questions

Posted on 2006-06-05 19:25:35 by oasysco

Phil wrote:
&gt; Hi:
&gt;
&gt; I have a '66 ES 175 that feels a bit stiff to me lately (I've been
&gt; playing my Tele too much!). Any suggestions for string brand/gauge or
&gt; adjustments? I'm using D'Addario Chrome 12s at the moment (not wedded
&gt; to them by any means).
&gt;
&gt; Thanks

I have had the same problem recently.

For one brief shining moment this past Christmas I had in my possession
simultaneously a used ES-165, used ES-175, and a new ES-175.

I had had the used Es-175 professionally set up just a month or two
earlier. All 3 guitars were strung with 13's - Fender Flats.

The used 165 and the new 175 played exceedingly well, but the used 175
felt stiff and all the more by comparison.

To recount - same strings on all 3 guitars and the used 175 felt stiff
even though it had been professionally setup not 60 days before by my
fave guitar shop.

Some guitars just feel stiff. It's in the way they're built, the way
the wood has aged - something differentiates them.

You can go with lighter gauge strings, maybe a fret level, maybe even a
fretboard plane. I'd take it to a competent luthier or guitar tech and
get at least one opinion.

Greg

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#5: Re: ES 175 Setup Questions

Posted on 2006-06-05 23:41:02 by Mark Cleary

Change the strings if they are old as old strings get stiff. Try a
roundwound 12-52 Daquisto or similar. The action should be about 4/64 on the
treble and 5/64 on the bass side at the 12th fret. See my post on the review
of guitars from the Villa Park show. If you have the tools a precise metal
ruler with 32nds or 64th will work. Take this measurement first. Relief in
the neck can be done buy freting the 15th fret and the first fret of the 6th
string. Should be only a small gap in the middle almost none between these
frets. Finally I would disagree with Joey about the truss rod needing
adjusting twice a year. That me be true but if you don't drastically change
strings gauges I would rather see a guitar with much more stability. A
gibson 175 should not need a truss rod adjustment once it gets set up
correct. At least not twice a year. On a quality made guitar with the same
set up I think truss rods should almost never need adjusting after initial
break in period. I have never adjusted the truss rod of some 175;s players
have had for years. Get these figures and post them and see what happens. A
gibson like this with no neck issues should be able to be made to play like
butter if want. A good set up person can usually get them pretty nice to
play.


--
Mark Cleary
Hollenbeck Jazz Guitars the Finest
Handcarved Jazz Guitars
<a href="http://members.cox.net/ruthster/hollenbeck/" target="_blank">http://members.cox.net/ruthster/hollenbeck/</a>

&quot;Phil&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:pdemario&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">pdemario&#64;yahoo.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:1149519389.500663.249080&#64;i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1149519389.500663.249080&#64;i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt; Hi:
&gt;
&gt; I have a '66 ES 175 that feels a bit stiff to me lately (I've been
&gt; playing my Tele too much!). Any suggestions for string brand/gauge or
&gt; adjustments? I'm using D'Addario Chrome 12s at the moment (not wedded
&gt; to them by any means).
&gt;
&gt; Thanks
&gt;

Report this message

#6: Re: ES 175 Setup Questions

Posted on 2006-06-06 01:05:35 by Kid Kool

Phil wrote:
&gt; Hi:
&gt;
&gt; I have a '66 ES 175 that feels a bit stiff to me lately (I've been
&gt; playing my Tele too much!). Any suggestions for string brand/gauge or
&gt; adjustments? I'm using D'Addario Chrome 12s

Use D'Addario Jazz Light round 12s [or any round 12]. They sound twangy
at first, but after a couple of days the tone darkens right up. And the
older they get the better they sound. I don't like Chromes at all -
they always feel stiff.

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#7: Re: ES 175 Setup Questions

Posted on 2006-06-06 03:32:30 by Tim McNamara

In article &lt;Ox1hg.9042$<a href="mailto:3i3.520&#64;trnddc08" target="_blank">3i3.520&#64;trnddc08</a>&gt;,
&quot;Mark Cleary&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:mcleary1&#64;verizondot.net" target="_blank">mcleary1&#64;verizondot.net</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt; Change the strings if they are old as old strings get stiff.

I've noticed that the feel and sound of strings change over time, but
metallurgically speaking there isn't any way for them to get stiffer as
they get older AFAIK. Wound strings might build up crud and debris in
the windings, which would affect how they feel.

&gt; Finally I would disagree with Joey about the truss rod needing
&gt; adjusting twice a year. That me be true but if you don't drastically
&gt; change strings gauges I would rather see a guitar with much more
&gt; stability. A gibson 175 should not need a truss rod adjustment once
&gt; it gets set up correct. At least not twice a year. On a quality made
&gt; guitar with the same set up I think truss rods should almost never
&gt; need adjusting after initial break in period.

I agree, I've got guitars that haven't had a truss rod adjustment in 10
years or more. My flat-top did after a refret, but that was the first
time in at least 15 years. My GB-10 hasn't had a truss rod adjustment
in at least that long. I have settled on string gauges years ago; if
you're changing string gauges, there shouldn't be any need to adjust the
truss rod once it's set correctly.

Report this message

#8: Re: ES 175 Setup Questions

Posted on 2006-06-06 04:40:23 by Mark Cleary

I beg to differ the strings to get more tension as the elasticity breaks
down over time. The strings lose the ability to flex as the metal breaks
down. This can increase the tension and the feel of the strings. If you
don't believe me string up a 175 with new strings and then get them all up
to pitch. Played the guitar for a week and get the strings broken so they
don't stretch because they are new. Then put the guitar away for 5 years and
never touch it, I can assure you the strings will get stiff and tension will
build up.


--
Mark Cleary
Hollenbeck Jazz Guitars the Finest
Handcarved Jazz Guitars
<a href="http://members.cox.net/ruthster/hollenbeck/" target="_blank">http://members.cox.net/ruthster/hollenbeck/</a>
&quot;Tim McNamara&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:timmcn&#64;bitstream.net" target="_blank">timmcn&#64;bitstream.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:timmcn-555BB7.20323005062006&#64;news.iphouse.com..." target="_blank">timmcn-555BB7.20323005062006&#64;news.iphouse.com...</a>
&gt; In article &lt;Ox1hg.9042$<a href="mailto:3i3.520&#64;trnddc08" target="_blank">3i3.520&#64;trnddc08</a>&gt;,
&gt; &quot;Mark Cleary&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:mcleary1&#64;verizondot.net" target="_blank">mcleary1&#64;verizondot.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt; Change the strings if they are old as old strings get stiff.
&gt;
&gt; I've noticed that the feel and sound of strings change over time, but
&gt; metallurgically speaking there isn't any way for them to get stiffer as
&gt; they get older AFAIK. Wound strings might build up crud and debris in
&gt; the windings, which would affect how they feel.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; Finally I would disagree with Joey about the truss rod needing
&gt; &gt; adjusting twice a year. That me be true but if you don't drastically
&gt; &gt; change strings gauges I would rather see a guitar with much more
&gt; &gt; stability. A gibson 175 should not need a truss rod adjustment once
&gt; &gt; it gets set up correct. At least not twice a year. On a quality made
&gt; &gt; guitar with the same set up I think truss rods should almost never
&gt; &gt; need adjusting after initial break in period.
&gt;
&gt; I agree, I've got guitars that haven't had a truss rod adjustment in 10
&gt; years or more. My flat-top did after a refret, but that was the first
&gt; time in at least 15 years. My GB-10 hasn't had a truss rod adjustment
&gt; in at least that long. I have settled on string gauges years ago; if
&gt; you're changing string gauges, there shouldn't be any need to adjust the
&gt; truss rod once it's set correctly.

Report this message

#9: Re: ES 175 Setup Questions

Posted on 2006-06-06 05:03:36 by Joey Goldstein

Tim McNamara wrote:
&gt; In article &lt;Ox1hg.9042$<a href="mailto:3i3.520&#64;trnddc08" target="_blank">3i3.520&#64;trnddc08</a>&gt;,
&gt; &quot;Mark Cleary&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:mcleary1&#64;verizondot.net" target="_blank">mcleary1&#64;verizondot.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; Change the strings if they are old as old strings get stiff.
&gt;
&gt; I've noticed that the feel and sound of strings change over time, but
&gt; metallurgically speaking there isn't any way for them to get stiffer as
&gt; they get older AFAIK. Wound strings might build up crud and debris in
&gt; the windings, which would affect how they feel.
&gt;
&gt;&gt; Finally I would disagree with Joey about the truss rod needing
&gt;&gt; adjusting twice a year. That me be true but if you don't drastically
&gt;&gt; change strings gauges I would rather see a guitar with much more
&gt;&gt; stability. A gibson 175 should not need a truss rod adjustment once
&gt;&gt; it gets set up correct. At least not twice a year. On a quality made
&gt;&gt; guitar with the same set up I think truss rods should almost never
&gt;&gt; need adjusting after initial break in period.
&gt;
&gt; I agree, I've got guitars that haven't had a truss rod adjustment in 10
&gt; years or more. My flat-top did after a refret, but that was the first
&gt; time in at least 15 years. My GB-10 hasn't had a truss rod adjustment
&gt; in at least that long. I have settled on string gauges years ago; if
&gt; you're changing string gauges, there shouldn't be any need to adjust the
&gt; truss rod once it's set correctly.

Well, my experience, with every guitar I've ever owned, has been the
exact opposite. Perhaps the climate and humidity levels where you live
are more constant year-round than they are here in Toronto.
In Winter the wood shrinks due to lack of moisture in the air and the
truss rod needs to be tightened.
In Summer the wood expands due to the increased humidity and the truss
rod needs to be loosened.

--
Joey Goldstein
<a href="http://www.joeygoldstein.com" target="_blank">http://www.joeygoldstein.com</a>
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

Report this message

#10: Re: ES 175 Setup Questions

Posted on 2006-06-06 05:21:06 by Mark Cleary

Joey,

I will take you word for it but I live in central illinois same weather
situation as you ,what guitars are you playing? I have not adjusted the
truss rod on my Barker guitar ever and I have had it since 1979. I do find
that I have to lower the action on the bridge during the summer as wood
expands a little and opposite in winter. This does not happen every year but
sometimes. The other thing is you are playing gigs and out more than I ever
do so that could be too. I am serious hobby player these days and yours are
working tools.


--
Mark Cleary
Hollenbeck Jazz Guitars the Finest
Handcarved Jazz Guitars
<a href="http://members.cox.net/ruthster/hollenbeck/" target="_blank">http://members.cox.net/ruthster/hollenbeck/</a>
&quot;Joey Goldstein&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nospam&#64;nowhere.net" target="_blank">nospam&#64;nowhere.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:e62rab$mnd$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.datemas.de..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.datemas.de...</a>
&gt; Tim McNamara wrote:
&gt; &gt; In article &lt;Ox1hg.9042$<a href="mailto:3i3.520&#64;trnddc08" target="_blank">3i3.520&#64;trnddc08</a>&gt;,
&gt; &gt; &quot;Mark Cleary&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:mcleary1&#64;verizondot.net" target="_blank">mcleary1&#64;verizondot.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; Change the strings if they are old as old strings get stiff.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; I've noticed that the feel and sound of strings change over time, but
&gt; &gt; metallurgically speaking there isn't any way for them to get stiffer as
&gt; &gt; they get older AFAIK. Wound strings might build up crud and debris in
&gt; &gt; the windings, which would affect how they feel.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; Finally I would disagree with Joey about the truss rod needing
&gt; &gt;&gt; adjusting twice a year. That me be true but if you don't drastically
&gt; &gt;&gt; change strings gauges I would rather see a guitar with much more
&gt; &gt;&gt; stability. A gibson 175 should not need a truss rod adjustment once
&gt; &gt;&gt; it gets set up correct. At least not twice a year. On a quality made
&gt; &gt;&gt; guitar with the same set up I think truss rods should almost never
&gt; &gt;&gt; need adjusting after initial break in period.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; I agree, I've got guitars that haven't had a truss rod adjustment in 10
&gt; &gt; years or more. My flat-top did after a refret, but that was the first
&gt; &gt; time in at least 15 years. My GB-10 hasn't had a truss rod adjustment
&gt; &gt; in at least that long. I have settled on string gauges years ago; if
&gt; &gt; you're changing string gauges, there shouldn't be any need to adjust the
&gt; &gt; truss rod once it's set correctly.
&gt;
&gt; Well, my experience, with every guitar I've ever owned, has been the
&gt; exact opposite. Perhaps the climate and humidity levels where you live
&gt; are more constant year-round than they are here in Toronto.
&gt; In Winter the wood shrinks due to lack of moisture in the air and the
&gt; truss rod needs to be tightened.
&gt; In Summer the wood expands due to the increased humidity and the truss
&gt; rod needs to be loosened.
&gt;
&gt; --
&gt; Joey Goldstein
&gt; <a href="http://www.joeygoldstein.com" target="_blank">http://www.joeygoldstein.com</a>
&gt; joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

Report this message

#11: Re: ES 175 Setup Questions

Posted on 2006-06-06 05:44:17 by ottguit

I've lived in Montreal, Victoria and Ottawa, and have yet to play with
the truss rod on my 1957 ES125. I don't do the fret jobs or setups
myself tho , and have had very few done.over the years.
That 125 was my main Gigging axe from 1965 to 2005.
Right now it's a Yammie AE1200, and the action on that seems Lower now
than last winter, beats me. I just raise or lower the bridge a little
IF required.
I use .013&quot;s on the ES125 .012's on the Yammie and Roland Strat copy
G202.
I Never take all my strings off tho!

Truss rod had to be adjusted on the solid Body 'cause I hadn't touched
it for a few years,
and it traveled in the trunk of my car for a week during the
Cross-country trip from Vancouver to Ottawa. I might have gone down a
string guage in that case too.
Bg

Report this message

#12: Re: ES 175 Setup Questions

Posted on 2006-06-06 05:51:02 by Tim McNamara

In article &lt;e62rab$mnd$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.datemas.de" target="_blank">1&#64;news.datemas.de</a>&gt;,
Joey Goldstein &lt;<a href="mailto:nospam&#64;nowhere.net" target="_blank">nospam&#64;nowhere.net</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt; Tim McNamara wrote:
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; I agree, I've got guitars that haven't had a truss rod adjustment
&gt; &gt; in 10 years or more. My flat-top did after a refret, but that was
&gt; &gt; the first time in at least 15 years. My GB-10 hasn't had a truss
&gt; &gt; rod adjustment in at least that long. I have settled on string
&gt; &gt; gauges years ago; if you're changing string gauges, there shouldn't
&gt; &gt; be any need to adjust the truss rod once it's set correctly.
&gt;
&gt; Well, my experience, with every guitar I've ever owned, has been the
&gt; exact opposite. Perhaps the climate and humidity levels where you
&gt; live are more constant year-round than they are here in Toronto. In
&gt; Winter the wood shrinks due to lack of moisture in the air and the
&gt; truss rod needs to be tightened. In Summer the wood expands due to
&gt; the increased humidity and the truss rod needs to be loosened.

I live a bit farther north than you, in Minneapolis/St. Paul. Summers
are humid, winters are dry (although the past 10 years winters have been
much warmer and damper than had been the norm). My flat top gets some
rattles as the top tends to sink a bit in the winter, but adjusting the
truss rod won't fix that. My GB-10 never seems to change seasonally.

Report this message

#13: Re: ES 175 Setup Questions

Posted on 2006-06-06 06:46:08 by Tim McNamara

In article &lt;rW5hg.5254$<a href="mailto:9f2.119&#64;trnddc04" target="_blank">9f2.119&#64;trnddc04</a>&gt;,
&quot;Mark Cleary&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:mcleary1&#64;verizondot.net" target="_blank">mcleary1&#64;verizondot.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &quot;Tim McNamara&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:timmcn&#64;bitstream.net" target="_blank">timmcn&#64;bitstream.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:<a href="mailto:timmcn-555BB7.20323005062006&#64;news.iphouse.com..." target="_blank">timmcn-555BB7.20323005062006&#64;news.iphouse.com...</a>
&gt; &gt; In article &lt;Ox1hg.9042$<a href="mailto:3i3.520&#64;trnddc08" target="_blank">3i3.520&#64;trnddc08</a>&gt;,
&gt; &gt; &quot;Mark Cleary&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:mcleary1&#64;verizondot.net" target="_blank">mcleary1&#64;verizondot.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; Change the strings if they are old as old strings get stiff.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; I've noticed that the feel and sound of strings change over time,
&gt; &gt; but metallurgically speaking there isn't any way for them to get
&gt; &gt; stiffer as they get older AFAIK. Wound strings might build up crud
&gt; &gt; and debris in the windings, which would affect how they feel.
&gt;
&gt; I beg to differ the strings to get more tension as the elasticity
&gt; breaks down over time. The strings lose the ability to flex as the
&gt; metal breaks down. This can increase the tension and the feel of the
&gt; strings. If you don't believe me string up a 175 with new strings and
&gt; then get them all up to pitch. Played the guitar for a week and get
&gt; the strings broken so they don't stretch because they are new. Then
&gt; put the guitar away for 5 years and never touch it, I can assure you
&gt; the strings will get stiff and tension will build up.

Hmmm. Not intending to pick a fight, but my understanding of steels
suggests that loss of elasticity is not the culprit. Perhaps someone in
this newsgroup is a metallurgist in their day job? I'll take the risk
of expounding on my thinking (the risk being that I could be all wrong).

All steels have the same modulus of elasticity and that doesn't change
over time unless the metal composition changes. Corrosion would be one
example of metal composition changing. However, that wouldn't make the
strings stiffer, it would only make them more likely to break. The only
way for the string to become stiffer as it ages would be to become less
elastic, and it doesn't look like that is likely from the metallurgical
literature I've looked at- but I am not a metallurgist and may have
overlooked something obvious.

String do get some build up of crud- oils, dead skin cells, minerals
from sweat (an also beer, cigarette smoke, etc). Given the small mass
of a guitar string, it would not be surprising that such buildup might
have a noticeable effect on the sound quality of the string. Would it
make the string feel stiffer? Hmmm. Potentially I suppose the friction
of the string against the fret might increase to the extent that the
player could feel it when bending notes. Since the buildup would be
gradual, it might be noticed more by contrast when new strings are
installed. That might in turn lead to the perception that the old
strings were &quot;stiffer.&quot; I've certainly noticed that new strings feel
&quot;noodlier&quot; than old strings. They also feel thinner than old strings
(I've been using the same gauges for years).

As far as tension building up over time, I suspect that at least some of
that is due to friction at the nut. The string tension between the nut
and the tuning post can be higher than the tension of the string between
the nut and the bridge. Friction between the string and the nut is the
main culprit, and the greater the angle the string bends over the nut,
the higher the friction. Improper nut prep would also probably
contribute. As the string is tuned up, the tension behind the nut is
higher and slowly pulls the string over the nut, increasing the tension
on the string and causing it to go sharp.

As I looked around on the internet in response to Mark's comment, I
found that there is very little factual data but a lot of opinion. Lots
of statements that strings lose elasticity over time, but no actual
science behind those opinions.

Report this message

#14: Re: ES 175 Setup Questions

Posted on 2006-06-06 22:26:17 by Joey Goldstein

Mark Cleary wrote:
&gt; Joey,
&gt;
&gt; I will take you word for it but I live in central illinois same weather
&gt; situation as you ,what guitars are you playing? I have not adjusted the
&gt; truss rod on my Barker guitar ever and I have had it since 1979. I do find
&gt; that I have to lower the action on the bridge during the summer as wood
&gt; expands a little and opposite in winter.

Well, see, if that was happening to me, I'd do a setup, which includes a
truss rod adjustment. Humidity, or lack of it, is not going to affect
your bridge's height (maybe a little bit on an archtop, but not much).
What it affects is the neck. So adjusting the bridge is not the best
response, at least not until after the truss rod has been adjusted.

&gt; This does not happen every year but
&gt; sometimes. The other thing is you are playing gigs and out more than I ever
&gt; do so that could be too. I am serious hobby player these days and yours are
&gt; working tools.
&gt;
&gt;


--
Joey Goldstein
<a href="http://www.joeygoldstein.com" target="_blank">http://www.joeygoldstein.com</a>
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

Report this message

#15: Re: ES 175 Setup Questions

Posted on 2006-06-06 22:29:45 by Joey Goldstein

<a href="mailto:ottguit&#64;hotmail.com" target="_blank">ottguit&#64;hotmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt; I've lived in Montreal, Victoria and Ottawa, and have yet to play with
&gt; the truss rod on my 1957 ES125. I don't do the fret jobs or setups
&gt; myself tho , and have had very few done.over the years.

You should learn how. It's very simple to do and will save you lots of
money. Plus the more you know about how your guitar operates the more
clues you'll have as to how to play it efficiently.

&gt; That 125 was my main Gigging axe from 1965 to 2005.
&gt; Right now it's a Yammie AE1200, and the action on that seems Lower now
&gt; than last winter, beats me.

It's due to the change in humidity and the way it affects the neck relief.

&gt; I just raise or lower the bridge a little
&gt; IF required.

The correct response is to do a truss rod adjustment.

&gt; I use .013&quot;s on the ES125 .012's on the Yammie and Roland Strat copy
&gt; G202.
&gt; I Never take all my strings off tho!
&gt;
&gt; Truss rod had to be adjusted on the solid Body 'cause I hadn't touched
&gt; it for a few years,
&gt; and it traveled in the trunk of my car for a week during the
&gt; Cross-country trip from Vancouver to Ottawa. I might have gone down a
&gt; string guage in that case too.
&gt; Bg
&gt;


--
Joey Goldstein
<a href="http://www.joeygoldstein.com" target="_blank">http://www.joeygoldstein.com</a>
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

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#16: Re: ES 175 Setup Questions

Posted on 2006-06-07 00:33:57 by Mark Cleary

Joey,

The neck has much more mass than the top. The guitar top especially spruce
with pick up more moisture in the air. This causes the body to move up from
the arch and this raises the action, it would not be the neck, at least a
guitar with a maple neck. If the f holes have no binding this will make the
seasonal movements great. The binding will help prevent this some, another
reason for binding besides looks. This is especially true of acoustic
archtops with solid woods, will happen with flattops also. The neck can move
with the weather but I think it really is more the fingerboard than the
neck. The truss rod does correct this as you mentioned.

Any guitar with laminates should theoretically be more stable, that is why
they don't move as well and have less acoustic response. Also, the older a
guitar is the more stable it should become if it is taken care off with some
exceptions. Real lightly braced guitars can be a problem therein lies the
balance. Remember many old Guitars don't have truss rod either. I have a
1937 D&quot;angelico and it is a steel bar rolled inside the neck. Naturally it
has not been adjusted in 69 years. The neck never moves on this but it is
monster neck. The action will move a bit on this guitar but almost none.


&quot;Joey Goldstein&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nospam&#64;nowhere.net" target="_blank">nospam&#64;nowhere.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:e64oda$oo2$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.datemas.de..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.datemas.de...</a>
&gt; Mark Cleary wrote:
&gt; &gt; Joey,
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; I will take you word for it but I live in central illinois same weather
&gt; &gt; situation as you ,what guitars are you playing? I have not adjusted the
&gt; &gt; truss rod on my Barker guitar ever and I have had it since 1979. I do
find
&gt; &gt; that I have to lower the action on the bridge during the summer as wood
&gt; &gt; expands a little and opposite in winter.
&gt;
&gt; Well, see, if that was happening to me, I'd do a setup, which includes a
&gt; truss rod adjustment. Humidity, or lack of it, is not going to affect
&gt; your bridge's height (maybe a little bit on an archtop, but not much).
&gt; What it affects is the neck. So adjusting the bridge is not the best
&gt; response, at least not until after the truss rod has been adjusted.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; This does not happen every year but
&gt; &gt; sometimes. The other thing is you are playing gigs and out more than I
ever
&gt; &gt; do so that could be too. I am serious hobby player these days and yours
are
&gt; &gt; working tools.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; --
&gt; Joey Goldstein
&gt; <a href="http://www.joeygoldstein.com" target="_blank">http://www.joeygoldstein.com</a>
&gt; joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

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#17: Re: ES 175 Setup Questions

Posted on 2006-06-07 03:24:55 by Tim McNamara

In article &lt;ppnhg.11198$<a href="mailto:9c7.3008&#64;trnddc06" target="_blank">9c7.3008&#64;trnddc06</a>&gt;,
&quot;Mark Cleary&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:mcleary1&#64;verizondot.net" target="_blank">mcleary1&#64;verizondot.net</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt; The neck has much more mass than the top. The guitar top especially
&gt; spruce with pick up more moisture in the air. This causes the body to
&gt; move up from the arch and this raises the action, it would not be the
&gt; neck, at least a guitar with a maple neck. If the f holes have no
&gt; binding this will make the seasonal movements great. The binding will
&gt; help prevent this some, another reason for binding besides looks.
&gt; This is especially true of acoustic archtops with solid woods, will
&gt; happen with flattops also.

Interesting points. I hadn't thought of it as a matter of mass, but that
makes sense; certainly the much thicker piece of wood would be more
resistant to bending stresses. And the neck is loaded mostly in
compression- its strongest dimension- whereas the top is loaded in
tension with the force perpendicular to the surface.

I had thought about the top having a large surface area of unfinished
wood as making it more susceptible to changes in humidity, compared to
the neck which is usually finished on all sides and the ends for bolt-on
necks, and for set necks is only unfinished at the end that attaches to
the body.

&gt; The neck can move with the weather but I think it really is more the
&gt; fingerboard than the neck. The truss rod does correct this as you
&gt; mentioned.

Well, that makes sense too as the face of the fingerboard is usually
unfinished, which might allow the fingerboard to swell and contract. I
wonder- do the frets act as little wedges if/when the fingerboard swells
with humid weather (that is, would a fretted fingerboard be more
susceptible the losing relief than a fretless fingerboard)?

Maybe these are questions better addressed to a luthier's forum than a
jazz guitar forum.

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#18: Re: ES 175 Setup Questions

Posted on 2006-06-07 11:01:32 by arthur

In message &lt;ppnhg.11198$<a href="mailto:9c7.3008&#64;trnddc06" target="_blank">9c7.3008&#64;trnddc06</a>&gt;
&quot;Mark Cleary&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:mcleary1&#64;verizondot.net" target="_blank">mcleary1&#64;verizondot.net</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt; Joey,
&gt;
&gt; The neck has much more mass than the top. The guitar top especially spruce
&gt; with pick up more moisture in the air. This causes the body to move up from
&gt; the arch and this raises the action, it would not be the neck, at least a
&gt; guitar with a maple neck. If the f holes have no binding this will make the
&gt; seasonal movements great. The binding will help prevent this some, another
&gt; reason for binding besides looks. This is especially true of acoustic
&gt; archtops with solid woods, will happen with flattops also. The neck can move
&gt; with the weather but I think it really is more the fingerboard than the
&gt; neck. The truss rod does correct this as you mentioned.
&gt;
&gt; Any guitar with laminates should theoretically be more stable, that is why
&gt; they don't move as well and have less acoustic response. Also, the older a
&gt; guitar is the more stable it should become if it is taken care off with some
&gt; exceptions. Real lightly braced guitars can be a problem therein lies the
&gt; balance. Remember many old Guitars don't have truss rod either. I have a
&gt; 1937 D&quot;angelico and it is a steel bar rolled inside the neck. Naturally it
&gt; has not been adjusted in 69 years. The neck never moves on this but it is
&gt; monster neck. The action will move a bit on this guitar but almost none.
&gt;

You could perhaps add that the expansion and contraction affecting the
bridge height on a carved archtop includes that across the grain,
which is the greatest movement by far in any piece of wood.

The neck curvature is affected only by movement along the grain, which
is the least movement. I would guess that presence of the truss rod
constraining the length is what converts the longitudinal movement of
the neck into a change in curvature. Otherwise the neck would just
change a tiny amount in length while retaining the same shape - vide
your D'Angelico.

My own experience has been that my carved top guitars might need a
bridge adjustment after a large change in humidity, but rarely a truss
rod adjustment.


Arthur

--
Arthur Quinn
real-email arthur at bellacat dot com

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#19: Re: ES 175 Setup Questions

Posted on 2006-06-07 17:24:20 by Joey Goldstein

Well none of what you or Mark has said explains why *all* my *solid
body* guitars need a truss rod adjustment *at least* twice a year, and
they do. Of course I have an optimal setup for my neck relief, .010&quot; at
the 8th fret (with a capo on the 1st fret and the 22nd fret depressed).
Maybe you guys don't care about it so much. But for me, any less than
..010&quot; and the strings begin to crap out and buzz. Any more than .010&quot;
and the guitar is harder to play than it needs to be.

When you guys have these seasonal affective disorders on your archtops
do you actually check the neck relief?
If not, then it's likely that you have at least .010&quot; of relief during
the summer and somewhat more than that during the winter. For me, that
amount of relief in the winter would be unacceptable, especially when
it's so easy to fix.

--
Joey Goldstein
<a href="http://www.joeygoldstein.com" target="_blank">http://www.joeygoldstein.com</a>
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

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#20: Re: ES 175 Setup Questions

Posted on 2006-06-07 17:39:44 by Dave Stephens

I agree with Joey here. In Dallas, TX I hardly ever touched any of my
guitars, but now that I've moved to Denver they all need seasonal attention.

My Heritage Golden Eagle has a five-piece neck that didn't require
adjustment for SIX YEARS in Dallas, but in the low humidity of Denver it's
need two adjustments in a year. Maybe it'll settle down soon (it's 12-years
old) but it needs adjustment.

Like Joey, I love my action nice and low, so the margin for error is also
low.

Dave

&quot;Joey Goldstein&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nospam&#64;nowhere.net" target="_blank">nospam&#64;nowhere.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:e66r35$pu3$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.datemas.de..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.datemas.de...</a>
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Well none of what you or Mark has said explains why *all* my *solid body*
&gt; guitars need a truss rod adjustment *at least* twice a year, and they do.
&gt; Of course I have an optimal setup for my neck relief, .010&quot; at the 8th
&gt; fret (with a capo on the 1st fret and the 22nd fret depressed). Maybe you
&gt; guys don't care about it so much. But for me, any less than .010&quot; and the
&gt; strings begin to crap out and buzz. Any more than .010&quot; and the guitar is
&gt; harder to play than it needs to be.
&gt;
&gt; When you guys have these seasonal affective disorders on your archtops do
&gt; you actually check the neck relief?
&gt; If not, then it's likely that you have at least .010&quot; of relief during the
&gt; summer and somewhat more than that during the winter. For me, that amount
&gt; of relief in the winter would be unacceptable, especially when it's so
&gt; easy to fix.
&gt;
&gt; --
&gt; Joey Goldstein
&gt; <a href="http://www.joeygoldstein.com" target="_blank">http://www.joeygoldstein.com</a>
&gt; joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

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#21: Re: ES 175 Setup Questions

Posted on 2006-06-07 18:44:04 by Tom Walls

In article &lt;4rChg.111997$<a href="mailto:dW3.8893&#64;newssvr21.news.prodigy.com" target="_blank">dW3.8893&#64;newssvr21.news.prodigy.com</a>&gt;,
<a href="mailto:dcstep&#64;swbell.net" target="_blank">dcstep&#64;swbell.net</a> says...
&gt;
&gt; I agree with Joey here. In Dallas, TX I hardly ever touched any of my
&gt; guitars, but now that I've moved to Denver they all need seasonal attention.
&gt;
&gt; My Heritage Golden Eagle has a five-piece neck that didn't require
&gt; adjustment for SIX YEARS in Dallas, but in the low humidity of Denver it's
&gt; need two adjustments in a year. Maybe it'll settle down soon (it's 12-years
&gt; old) but it needs adjustment.
&gt;
&gt; Like Joey, I love my action nice and low, so the margin for error is also
&gt; low.
&gt;
&gt; Dave
&gt;
&gt;
New York's Finger Lakes here. Most my guitars need a biannual truss rod
adjustment, but interestingly, I don't remember ever adjusting my those
on my archtops.
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus

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#22: Re: ES 175 Setup Questions

Posted on 2006-06-07 19:22:35 by Joey Goldstein

Tom Walls wrote:
&gt; In article &lt;4rChg.111997$<a href="mailto:dW3.8893&#64;newssvr21.news.prodigy.com" target="_blank">dW3.8893&#64;newssvr21.news.prodigy.com</a>&gt;,
&gt; <a href="mailto:dcstep&#64;swbell.net" target="_blank">dcstep&#64;swbell.net</a> says...
&gt;&gt; I agree with Joey here. In Dallas, TX I hardly ever touched any of my
&gt;&gt; guitars, but now that I've moved to Denver they all need seasonal attention.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; My Heritage Golden Eagle has a five-piece neck that didn't require
&gt;&gt; adjustment for SIX YEARS in Dallas, but in the low humidity of Denver it's
&gt;&gt; need two adjustments in a year. Maybe it'll settle down soon (it's 12-years
&gt;&gt; old) but it needs adjustment.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Like Joey, I love my action nice and low, so the margin for error is also
&gt;&gt; low.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Dave
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt; New York's Finger Lakes here. Most my guitars need a biannual truss rod
&gt; adjustment, but interestingly, I don't remember ever adjusting my those
&gt; on my archtops.

Maybe it's because when the neck and top are both expanding (or
contracting) simultaneously they tend to cancel each other out as far as
the feeling of string height is concerned?

--
Joey Goldstein
<a href="http://www.joeygoldstein.com" target="_blank">http://www.joeygoldstein.com</a>
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

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