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#1: learning tunes w/ numbers (sorry if this is posted twice)

Posted on 2006-01-06 03:50:01 by mylesgtr

hi,

sorry if this is posted twice...i did this a few hours ago through
google groups and it didn't show up.

I'm just wondering if it's better to learn tunes by referring ALL the
chords of the tune back to the overall key of the tune? Or to refer to
the key center of the moment.

In other words, is the Green Dolphin Street Bridge a II/V/I followed by
a II/V/I up a minor 3rd? Or is it a ii/V/I followed by iv/bVII/bIII ?

I'm sure it's all subjective, but I'm wondering if anybody has tried
both ways and had more success, or if anybody has any reason to do it
one way rather than the other.

Thanks,
Myles

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#2: Re: learning tunes w/ numbers (sorry if this is posted twice)

Posted on 2006-01-06 18:17:41 by Joe Finn

&quot;mylesgtr&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:myles&#64;kc.rr.com" target="_blank">myles&#64;kc.rr.com</a>&gt; wrote
&gt;
&gt; I'm just wondering if it's better to learn tunes by referring ALL the
&gt; chords of the tune back to the overall key of the tune? Or to refer to
&gt; the key center of the moment.


It's been better for me to think about &quot;the key center of the moment&quot; as you
say. The alternative seems overly complex to me.

I've seen some Nashville guys that are pretty adept at this sort of thing
but I don't see the point outside of that context. .......joe

--
Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net

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#3: Re: learning tunes w/ numbers (sorry if this is posted twice)

Posted on 2006-01-06 18:46:24 by Patrick Hanrahan

&gt; In other words, is the Green Dolphin Street Bridge a II/V/I followed by
&gt; a II/V/I up a minor 3rd? Or is it a ii/V/I followed by iv/bVII/bIII ?

I've all waye seen it 'notated' with a letter in front of the new key so you
1st ex like this:
Eb: II/V/I Gb: II/V/I
&gt; I'm sure it's all subjective, but I'm wondering if anybody has tried
&gt; both ways and had more success, or if anybody has any reason to do it
&gt; one way rather than the other.
Personal I think its really hard this way, its a lot easier to do the chord
functions in your head then to
look/write then out in Roman numbers. It may help if your breaking down a
tune for analysis but for learning tunes
I feel it a lot harder. Check out J. Mehegan take on Green Dolphin St.

(Eb) I+6 / I / Im / Im / IIx2 / bIIM2 / I / # Io / II / bIIx / I / VI //
(Gb) II / bIIx / I # IV // (Eb) II bIIx / I+6 / I / Im / Im / IIx2 /
(Eb) bIIM2 / I / # Io / II II2 / VII bVIIx / VI VI2 / bV-o IVx /
(Eb) III bIIIx / II bIIx / I / I+6 //
Its been a wile but IIR:
M = Major, m= minor, x= Dom7 and Arabic numbers are inversions.

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#4: Re: learning tunes w/ numbers (sorry if this is posted twice)

Posted on 2006-01-06 18:52:15 by Paul Sanwald

I remember things the first way you mentioned, like ii-V-I then ii-V-I
up a minor third. I think of this as still being by function however,
since the Fm7 in green dolphin st in C is not functioning as a ivm
really, it's really functioning as the ii of a new key.

--paul

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#5: Re: learning tunes w/ numbers (sorry if this is posted twice)

Posted on 2006-01-06 19:01:39 by tombrown

I usually orient my frame of reference to the key of the moment. But I
also hear chords such as II7 and VII7 as part of the song's key center
instead of as temporary modulations. I don't shift my frame of
reference unless there is a more obvious modulation.

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#6: Re: learning tunes w/ numbers (sorry if this is posted twice)

Posted on 2006-01-06 19:18:59 by Joey Goldstein

mylesgtr wrote:
&gt;
&gt; hi,
&gt;
&gt; sorry if this is posted twice...i did this a few hours ago through
&gt; google groups and it didn't show up.
&gt;
&gt; I'm just wondering if it's better to learn tunes by referring ALL the
&gt; chords of the tune back to the overall key of the tune? Or to refer to
&gt; the key center of the moment.
&gt;
&gt; In other words, is the Green Dolphin Street Bridge a II/V/I followed by
&gt; a II/V/I up a minor 3rd? Or is it a ii/V/I followed by iv/bVII/bIII ?

It's really the former because the 2nd half of it is a full-blown key
change. But if the latter helps you to remeber it better than feel free
to thik that way.

&gt; I'm sure it's all subjective, but I'm wondering if anybody has tried
&gt; both ways and had more success, or if anybody has any reason to do it
&gt; one way rather than the other.
&gt;
&gt; Thanks,
&gt; Myles

--
Joey Goldstein
<a href="http://www.joeygoldstein.com" target="_blank">http://www.joeygoldstein.com</a>
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

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#7: Re: learning tunes w/ numbers (sorry if this is posted twice)

Posted on 2006-01-06 20:40:37 by Rick Ross

&quot;mylesgtr&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:myles&#64;kc.rr.com" target="_blank">myles&#64;kc.rr.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:1136515801.832596.183980&#64;g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1136515801.832596.183980&#64;g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt; hi,
&gt;
&gt; sorry if this is posted twice...i did this a few hours ago through
&gt; google groups and it didn't show up.
&gt;
&gt; I'm just wondering if it's better to learn tunes by referring ALL the
&gt; chords of the tune back to the overall key of the tune? Or to refer to
&gt; the key center of the moment.
&gt;
&gt; In other words, is the Green Dolphin Street Bridge a II/V/I followed by
&gt; a II/V/I up a minor 3rd? Or is it a ii/V/I followed by iv/bVII/bIII ?
&gt;
&gt; I'm sure it's all subjective, but I'm wondering if anybody has tried
&gt; both ways and had more success, or if anybody has any reason to do it
&gt; one way rather than the other.
&gt;
&gt; Thanks,
&gt; Myles
&gt;
sometimes I'll use this to help a player who might sit in and is not
completely familiar with changes...e.g Samba De Orfeu..I'll just say before
we start something like Cmajor to Dm and the bridge is 2/5/1 F 2/5/1 Eb..a
quick way to simply outline the harmony..

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#8: Re: learning tunes w/ numbers (sorry if this is posted twice)

Posted on 2006-01-06 21:30:05 by jurupari

I'm sure it's all subjective, but I'm wondering if anybody has tried
both ways and had more success, or if anybody has any reason to do it
one way rather than the other.
-------------------------

I hear the tertian chords of the major scale, dominant sevenths over
the same bass tones, their minor and dominant backcycles and tritone
subs as being all in the same key. anything else is modulation. I do
this by ear so it's pretty easy to keep your place in a song that way.
It took a long time.

Clif Kuplen

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#9: Re: learning tunes w/ numbers (sorry if this is posted twice)

Posted on 2006-01-06 22:21:29 by mylesgtr

Maybe I should've been a little more clear about why I'm wondering
about this. If I were trying to quickly learn the changes to a tune
from somebody on the bandstand, or tell somebody what they were, I
would be thinking...ok, the bridge is a 2/5/1 in C then a 2/5/1 in Eb.

But, I'm starting to work on this numbers thing entirely so I can get
better at on-the-spot transposing...so thinking 2/5 in C to 2/5 in Eb
isn't going to do me much good if a vocalist at a jam calls Green
Dolphin Street in Ab...which is why I'd be thinking 2/5/1, up a min3rd,
2/5/1, etc.

But, I'm thinking that for a tune w/ a lot of key changes (green
dolphin wouldn't be one of them), it might be easier to relate it all
back to the overall key of the tune like the nashville thing.

So, basically, I'm only thinking about this in terms of making
transposition happen faster.

Thanks,
Myles

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#10: Re: learning tunes w/ numbers (I Could Write A Book)

Posted on 2006-01-06 23:23:58 by mylesgtr

Google groups seems to be posting my stuff hours after I send it, so I
don't know when this will show up, but...

I'm learning &quot;I Could Write a Book&quot; right now, and I want to work on it
in 12 keys, so I thought I'd see how you guys would write this out for
yourself (or think of it anyway) if you were trying to make it easy to
learn in 12 keys.

First off, the changes I got from the real book, which i haven't
checked against anything yet:

C A-|D- G7| E- A-| D- G7|
C |E- A7| D- | Bm7b5 E7|
A- |D- G7|F#m7b5 B7| E- |
A- | D7 | D- | G7 |

C A-|D- G7| E- A-| D- G7|
C |E- A7| D- | Bm7b5 E7|
A- |Ab7 | G- C7|Fmaj7 Bb7|
E- A7|D- G7| Cmaj7| D- G7|

Do you think of the 8th and 9th bars as a ii/V to the relative minor
even though it only goes there for those two bars? or do you think
vii-7b5 III7 to vii? or do you just think of it as a 2/5 to the vii
w/out giving the 2/5 numbers w/in the key?

Then, that same question applies 2 bars later w/ the 2/5 to the iii.
Do you keep it in the original key and go #iv-7b5 VII7 to iii? Or do
you think ii-7b5 V| i a minor 3rd up? Or just think of it as a 2/5 to
the iii?

Then, the last 4 bars of the first half. Is it:
vi | II7 | ii | V|

or is it ii/V up a 5th ii/V down a 5th?

or is it ii/V to the V of the original key and then just a ii/V?

Then the 2nd time through starting at the 9th bar, I'd probably think
of that as a true modulation up a 4th b/c it's there for a while:

so, iii | bIII7 | ii V| I IV7|
then back down a 4th and:
iii vi| ii V| I | ii V|

So, I guess what's really giving me a problem are the quick ii/V's to
the iii or vi that only last for a bar or so. it seems like too much
thought to really call those modulations to a different key, but it
also seems odd to call the ii'v a #iv-7b5 VII7.

I'd imagine that after you learn to play 100 tunes in 12 keys,you
pretty much just hear it and don't really have to think numbers anyway,
but until I can do that, I want to have some kind of a constant system
to get me through.

Thanks
Myles

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#11: Re: learning tunes w/ numbers (I Could Write A Book)

Posted on 2006-01-07 00:29:23 by jurupari

That song's all in one key to me - it's tertian chords with an
occasional dominant over a scale tone bass note. One, Ab is a tritone
sub of the preceding, and F#m7b5 is a backcycled minor, #4-7dominant-3
minor type movement.

this stuff occurs so much in songs it's really easy to learn what it
sounds like so you don't have to relearn it every time you learn a new
song.

Clif

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#12: Re: learning tunes w/ numbers (I Could Write A Book)

Posted on 2006-01-07 00:54:25 by Max Leggett

&lt;<a href="mailto:jurupari&#64;aol.com" target="_blank">jurupari&#64;aol.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:1136590163.568929.41600&#64;o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1136590163.568929.41600&#64;o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt;
&gt; this stuff occurs so much in songs it's really easy to learn what it
&gt; sounds like so you don't have to relearn it every time you learn a new
&gt; song.
&gt;

That's the secret - bandstand time. It drills those sounds right into you so
you don't even have to think about the changes.

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#13: Re: learning tunes w/ numbers (I Could Write A Book)

Posted on 2006-01-07 01:16:33 by unknown

Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)

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#14: Re: learning tunes w/ numbers (I Could Write A Book)

Posted on 2006-01-07 03:15:12 by Joey Goldstein

mylesgtr wrote:
&gt;
&gt; Google groups seems to be posting my stuff hours after I send it, so I
&gt; don't know when this will show up, but...
&gt;
&gt; I'm learning &quot;I Could Write a Book&quot; right now, and I want to work on it
&gt; in 12 keys, so I thought I'd see how you guys would write this out for
&gt; yourself (or think of it anyway) if you were trying to make it easy to
&gt; learn in 12 keys.
&gt;
&gt; First off, the changes I got from the real book, which i haven't
&gt; checked against anything yet:
&gt;
&gt; C A-|D- G7| E- A-| D- G7|
&gt; C |E- A7| D- | Bm7b5 E7|
&gt; A- |D- G7|F#m7b5 B7| E- |
&gt; A- | D7 | D- | G7 |
&gt;
&gt; C A-|D- G7| E- A-| D- G7|
&gt; C |E- A7| D- | Bm7b5 E7|
&gt; A- |Ab7 | G- C7|Fmaj7 Bb7|
&gt; E- A7|D- G7| Cmaj7| D- G7|
&gt;
&gt; Do you think of the 8th and 9th bars as a ii/V to the relative minor
&gt; even though it only goes there for those two bars?

Yes.

&gt; or do you think
&gt; vii-7b5 III7 to vii? or do you just think of it as a 2/5 to the vii
&gt; w/out giving the 2/5 numbers w/in the key?
&gt;
&gt; Then, that same question applies 2 bars later w/ the 2/5 to the iii.
&gt; Do you keep it in the original key and go #iv-7b5 VII7 to iii? Or do
&gt; you think ii-7b5 V| i a minor 3rd up? Or just think of it as a 2/5 to
&gt; the iii?

It's an analysed usually as a secondary key.
In C major B7 moving to Em is
V7/IIIm (&quot;V7-of-IIIm&quot;) to IIIm.
Because Em is also a diatonic chord in the primary key, only if the
music stays in the key of E min for any length of time will this be
labeled as a bona fide key change. I.e. It actally *is* a key change to
E minor but it is not normally labelled as such.

The B7 as V7 is extended by preceding it with its own related IIm7
(F#m7) or IIm7b5 (F#m7b5) chord. So
C:
V7/IIIm IIIm
becomes
C:
\IIm7b5 V7/IIIm IIIm
F#m7b5 B7 Em
(&quot;IIm7b5-of-IIIm V7-of-IIIm&quot; or &quot;II-V-of IIIm&quot;)

Sounds like you have not yet learned about &quot;secondary dominants&quot; or
&quot;tonicization&quot;. Look up topics soon.

&gt; Then, the last 4 bars of the first half. Is it:
&gt; vi | II7 | ii | V|
&gt;
&gt; or is it ii/V up a 5th ii/V down a 5th?
&gt;
&gt; or is it ii/V to the V of the original key and then just a ii/V?

D7 is V7/V. Am7 is its related IIm7.

C:
\IIm7 |V7/V |\IIm7 |V7/ |
Am7 D7 Dm7 G7
The D7 chord's expected resolution to G7 is delayed via the interpolated
Dm7 chord.

&gt; Then the 2nd time through starting at the 9th bar, I'd probably think
&gt; of that as a true modulation up a 4th b/c it's there for a while:
&gt;
&gt; so, iii | bIII7 | ii V| I IV7|
&gt; then back down a 4th and:
&gt; iii vi| ii V| I | ii V|

C:
VIm SubV7/V \IIm7 V7/IV IVmaj7 bVII7
A- |Ab7 | G- C7 |Fmaj7 Bb7 |

\IIm7 V7/IIm \IIm7 V7/ Imaj7
E- A7 |D- G7| Cmaj7| D- G7|

&quot;SubV7/V&quot; (Ab7) is a tritone substitute dominant chord for V7/V (D7).
Classical theorists also call this &quot;the augmented 6th chord&quot;.
The aug 6 chord has a root on scale degree b6 of the key and is spelled
with an aug 6th interval, literally Ab(add#6).

The expected resolution of SubV7/V to V7 is thwarted somewhat by the
arrival on a min7 chord whose root is on scale degree 5 rather than a
dom7 chord whose root is on scale degree 5. This is a type of deceptive resolution.

Gm7 and C7 are IIm7 and V7 respectively in the key of F. I.e. This too
is an actually key change into F major, but because it does not last for
a significant duration and because F us also a diatonic chord in the key
of C major we normally analyse this as a secondary progression.
&quot;II-V-of-IV&quot;

The Bb7 can be seen trwo different ways, as IV7 in F (a borrowed chord
from the parallel minor key, F minor, via the F mel min scale) or as
bVII7 in C (seen as a borrowed chord from the parallel minor key, C minor).


&gt; So, I guess what's really giving me a problem are the quick ii/V's to
&gt; the iii or vi that only last for a bar or so. it seems like too much
&gt; thought to really call those modulations to a different key, but it
&gt; also seems odd to call the ii'v a #iv-7b5 VII7.

Here's the whole thing analysed with all secondary key changes listed as
bona fide key changes:

C:
I VIm IIm V7 IIIm VIm IIm V7
C A- |D- G7| E- A- | D- G7|

D: Dm: Am:
I IIm7 V7 Im IIm7b5 V7
C |E- A7| D- | Bm7b5 E7|

C: Em:
Im IIm V7 IIm7b5 V7 Im
A- |D- G7|F#m7b5 B7| E- |

G: C:
IIm V7 IIm V7
A- | D7 | D- | G7 |

C:
I VIm IIm V7 IIIm VIm IIm V7
C A- |D- G7| E- A- | D- G7|

D: Dm: Am:
I IIm V7 Im IIm7b5 V7
C |E- A7| D- | Bm7b5 E7|


Gm:
SubV7 Im
Gm: F:
Im SubV7 IIm V7 Imaj7 IV7
A- |Ab7 | G- C7|Fmaj7 Bb7|

D: C:
IIm V7 IIm V7 Imaj7 IIm V7
E- A7|D- G7| Cmaj7| D- G7|

Now here's the whole thing in C with secondary V7's and secondary II-V's.

C:
I VIm IIm V7 IIIm VIm IIm V7
C A- |D- G7| E- A- | D- G7|


I \IIm7 V7/IIm IIm \IIm7b5 V7/VIm
C |E- A7 | D- | Bm7b5 E7|


VIm \IIm V7/ \IIm7b5 V7/IIIm IIIm
A- |D- G7 |F#m7b5 B7 | E- |


\IIm V7/IIm \IIm V7/
A- | D7 | D- | G7 |


I VIm \IIm V7/ IIIm VIm \IIm V7/
C A- |D- G7 | E- A- | D- G7|


I \IIm V7/IIm IIm \IIm7b5 V7/VIm
C |E- A7 | D- | Bm7b5 E7|


VIm SubV7/V \IIm V7/IV IVmaj7 bVII7
A- |Ab7 | G- C7 |Fmaj7 Bb7 |


\IIm V7/IIm \IIm V7/ Imaj7 \IIm V7/
E- A7 |D- G7 | Cmaj7 | D- G7|

Note that all II-V relationships whether in the primary key or in a
secondary key are contained within left and right slash marks (eg. \IIm
V7/).

&gt; I'd imagine that after you learn to play 100 tunes in 12 keys,you
&gt; pretty much just hear it and don't really have to think numbers anyway,
&gt; but until I can do that, I want to have some kind of a constant system
&gt; to get me through.

Actually, you end up hearing the numbers.

&gt;
&gt; Thanks
&gt; Myles

--
Joey Goldstein
<a href="http://www.joeygoldstein.com" target="_blank">http://www.joeygoldstein.com</a>
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

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#15: Re: learning tunes w/ numbers (I Could Write A Book)

Posted on 2006-01-07 04:11:54 by mylesgtr

Thanks Joey. I'm pretty sure I follow all of that. The way that I had
written it out for myself is pretty much the same as the 2nd way you
wrote it...i have it all related to the key of C, and i'm thinking of
a ii/v to the vi chord or a ii/v to the iii chord as being just that.
Those are the types of things that were throwing me, because I wouldn't
really consider them to be a real key change like the 2nd half of the
Green Dolphin bridge is since they're only there for a second.

If I'm thinking about this correctly, it's probably best to think about
a key center moving a minor 3rd away (or whatever it is) if it's going
to be there for a couple bars, but to just stick w/ thinking of it in
one key if it's something like &quot;i could write a book&quot; where it never
really goes to the new key?

Like, ATTYA would be best thought of in terms of new key centers b/c of
the 6/2/5/1 motion happening, but I could write a book is best thought
of in one key b/c those 2/5's are really just a way of getting you to
another diatonic chord in the key anyway.

Thanks,
Myles

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#16: Re: learning tunes w/ numbers (sorry if this is posted twice)

Posted on 2006-01-07 04:22:06 by Paul Sanwald

hey man,
if you're anything like I am you will remember the changes much
better if you learn them off of a record than if you learn them out of
a book. plus the real book changes always include lots of unecessary
chords and make every tune seem harder than it really is. if you don't
have a recording of the tune, a much better source for changes is
either the pocket changes book, or ralph patt's website. check out
ralph's changes to this tune:

<a href="http://www.ralphpatt.com/VB/i5.html" target="_blank">http://www.ralphpatt.com/VB/i5.html</a>

much simpler and more logical, IMO.

--paul

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#17: Re: learning tunes w/ numbers (I Could Write A Book)

Posted on 2006-01-07 04:56:25 by jurupari

That's the secret - bandstand time. It drills those sounds right into
you so
you don't even have to think about the changes.
------------------------------------------------------------ ----

That's the best way, but I got the same mileage out of hearing changes
from playing solo. I spent the same time catching up on Stravinsky,
Bartok and Ravel, and that helped a whole lot, too.

I would have preferred bands, but I had a standard of perfomance and
professionalism I couldn't live up to in jazz past just a few tunes, so
I worked a lot on my own, and learning to react internally to changes
and not think about them was a large part of what I worked on.

I knew it was working when I could think of a melody of a song I'd
never played and the changes would fill themselves in underneath it in
my internal ear.

I've been that way about 20 years now, I think. One of the few fun
things about being an old turd is being able to think of a song and
just play it.

This stuff seems so straightforward and simple now, but people seem to
dither endlessly about it. Whatever works, I guess.

Clif

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#18: Re: learning tunes w/ numbers (I Could Write A Book)

Posted on 2006-01-07 04:57:49 by Joey Goldstein

Well, in GDS, the key change into the key of scale degree b3 (&quot;the minor
mediant&quot;) doesn't last that long either. The main difference is that
bIII is not a diatonic chord in major keys.

In major keys only IIm, IIIm, IV, V and VIm are said to have the
necessary qualities for &quot;tonicization&quot; (i.e. making into a tonic), which
is brought about usually by means of preceding it with it's related V7 chord.
VIIdim is not usually seen as being a candidate for tonicization because
a chord with a b5 is not normally seen as a &quot;chord of rest&quot; which is the
main requirement of a tonic chord.

So, in major keys, the only secondary dominants are:
V7/IIm, V7/IIIm, V7/IV, V7/V and V7/VIm.
In C that's
A7 (when it resolves to Dm) = V7/IIm
B7 (when it resolves to Em) = V7/IIIm
C7 (when it resolves to F) = V7/IV
D7 (when it resolves to G7) = V7/V
E7 = V7/VIm
The tritones subs for these are:
SubV7 = Db7 (when it resolves to C)
SubV7/IIm = Eb7 (when it resolves to Dm)
SubV7/IIIm = F7 (when it resolves to Em)
SubV7/IV = Gb7 (when it resolves to F)
SubV7/V = Ab7 (when it resolves to G7)
SubV7/VIm = Bb7 (when it resolves to Am)


bIII *is* however a diatonic chord in minor keys though. And in a minor
key it can be tonicized via its own V7 chord.

So some analyses of GDS might look like this:

Eb:
Imaj7 bIIImaj7 (par min)
Ebmaj7 | |Gbmaj7/Eb | |

(chr app) &gt;&gt;&gt;
IImaj7 bIImaj7 (par phryg) Imaj7 IV7 \IIm7b5 V7/IIm
Fmaj7/Eb |Fbmaj7/Eb |Ebmaj7 Ab7 | Gm7b5 C7b9 |

\IIm7 V7/ Imaj7
Fm7 |Bb7 |Ebmaj7 | |

\IIm7 V7/bIII bIIImaj7 (par min) \IIm7 V7/
Abm7 |Db7 |Gbmaj7 |Fm7 Bb7 | etc.

So...
bIIImaj7, in both instances, can be seen as a borrowed chord from the
key of Eb minor via the Eb nat min scale. Borrowing chords from the
parallel minor happens all the time. But looking at it as a a bona fide
change of key from Eb major to Gb major is not wrong though. (Remember
that the relative minor of Gb major is Eb minor.)

Fmaj7/Eb can not be explained, as far as I know, by standard Tonal
mechanisms or borrowing from related keys and/or scales. I think it has
to be seen here as a chromatic approach chord between Gbmaj7 and Fbmaj7,
two chord that can be analysed according to standard Tonal devices. The
fact that there are 4 chords of constant structure and that there is a
pedal tone on the tonic help to make this sound cohesive.

bIImaj7 is a borrowed chord from the parallel phrygian scale, Eb
phrygian.
In classical times, in major keys, modal borrowing was confined to
borrowing from the parallel minor key and its 3 asscoiated scales: nat
min, harm min, and mel min. I.e. They would not have borrowed also from
the parallel dorian, phrygian or locrian scales.
There is, however, a chord in classical theory that is a major chord
built on scale degree b2. It's called &quot;The Neapolitan Chord&quot; but it's
usually not associated with modal borrowing from the parallel phrygian
scale. It's thought of as an altered version of IVm.
Eg. In the key of C major, the Neapolitan chord is Db, which is seen as
an Fm chord with raised 5th (although it's not spelled as #5...it's
spelled as b6...i'll have to think on that a bit). Also the Neapolitan
chord almost always occurs in 1st inversion and tends to precede V7
moreso than I. Still, lots of folks would call the bIImaj7 chord in GDS
a Neapolitan chord.

IV7 is a borrowed chord from the parallel minor key via the Eb mel min scale.

The topics covered here come under the headings of:
Tonicization
Secondary Dominants
Mixed Mode Technique
Modal Borrowing
Tritone Substitution
Extended Tonality

Try searching around the web on some of these search strings.
Better yet, try a library.
I'm sure you'll get to this stuff in your classes, but probably not
until 2nd year.

mylesgtr wrote:
&gt;
&gt; Thanks Joey. I'm pretty sure I follow all of that. The way that I had
&gt; written it out for myself is pretty much the same as the 2nd way you
&gt; wrote it...i have it all related to the key of C, and i'm thinking of
&gt; a ii/v to the vi chord or a ii/v to the iii chord as being just that.
&gt; Those are the types of things that were throwing me, because I wouldn't
&gt; really consider them to be a real key change like the 2nd half of the
&gt; Green Dolphin bridge is since they're only there for a second.
&gt;
&gt; If I'm thinking about this correctly, it's probably best to think about
&gt; a key center moving a minor 3rd away (or whatever it is) if it's going
&gt; to be there for a couple bars, but to just stick w/ thinking of it in
&gt; one key if it's something like &quot;i could write a book&quot; where it never
&gt; really goes to the new key?
&gt;
&gt; Like, ATTYA would be best thought of in terms of new key centers b/c of
&gt; the 6/2/5/1 motion happening, but I could write a book is best thought
&gt; of in one key b/c those 2/5's are really just a way of getting you to
&gt; another diatonic chord in the key anyway.
&gt;
&gt; Thanks,
&gt; Myles

--
Joey Goldstein
<a href="http://www.joeygoldstein.com" target="_blank">http://www.joeygoldstein.com</a>
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

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#19: Re: learning tunes w/ numbers (I Could Write A Book)

Posted on 2006-01-07 05:35:52 by mylesgtr

Thanks Joey,

Reading all of that makes me wonder about something else though. How
would somebody have gone about learning a tune in 12 keys 60 years ago
before jazz education and everything else? Just through trial and
error of playing it through the different keys until you just start
hearing it?

I remember seeing a Joe Pass video where he's struggling to call
something a 1/6/2/5 or whatever it was and he said that he's &quot;not good
with numbers&quot;.

Just for the sake of moving a tune through 12 keys like I'm trying to
do, is it better to not even think of the numbers, and just work with
it until I can hear it w/out having to give it names?

Thanks,
Myles

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#20: Re: learning tunes w/ numbers (I Could Write A Book)

Posted on 2006-01-07 06:01:19 by Joey Goldstein

mylesgtr wrote:
&gt;
&gt; Thanks Joey,
&gt;
&gt; Reading all of that makes me wonder about something else though. How
&gt; would somebody have gone about learning a tune in 12 keys 60 years ago
&gt; before jazz education and everything else? Just through trial and
&gt; error of playing it through the different keys until you just start
&gt; hearing it?

Mostly by ear, and by trial and error.
But the jazz harmony texts of today are really not all that far removed
from the legit harmony books that were around at the turn of the
century. Certainly the early jazz musicians came in contact with some
very educated classical musicians and some of the abstractions about
harmony that you and I have been discussing would have been discussed by
the early jazz guys too. Certainly they knew their major and minor
scales and associated chords and knew how to change keys. The jazz
harmony texts of today are IMO mostly watered down versions of legit
harmony anyway. The classical guys took Tonal harmony *very* seriously.

Remember though that jazz came to fruition just around the same time
that the phonograph became fairly ubiquitous. But before the 1st jazz
records the guys just had to hang out and play with each other and
listen to each other and learn what they could from the classical guys
and the blues guys who were also around.

After a while, as Jimmy Bruno has said (in his own way of course), the
more common prgressions get to be known as &quot;one of these&quot; or &quot;one of those&quot;.

&gt;
&gt; I remember seeing a Joe Pass video where he's struggling to call
&gt; something a 1/6/2/5 or whatever it was and he said that he's &quot;not good
&gt; with numbers&quot;.
&gt;
&gt; Just for the sake of moving a tune through 12 keys like I'm trying to
&gt; do, is it better to not even think of the numbers, and just work with
&gt; it until I can hear it w/out having to give it names?
&gt;
&gt; Thanks,
&gt; Myles

--
Joey Goldstein
<a href="http://www.joeygoldstein.com" target="_blank">http://www.joeygoldstein.com</a>
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

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#21: Re: learning tunes w/ numbers (I Could Write A Book)

Posted on 2006-01-07 06:06:08 by Joey Goldstein

Joey Goldstein wrote:
&gt;
&gt; mylesgtr wrote:
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Thanks Joey,
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Reading all of that makes me wonder about something else though. How
&gt; &gt; would somebody have gone about learning a tune in 12 keys 60 years ago
&gt; &gt; before jazz education and everything else? Just through trial and
&gt; &gt; error of playing it through the different keys until you just start
&gt; &gt; hearing it?
&gt;
&gt; Mostly by ear, and by trial and error.

Also..They probably would not have spent their teens playing one chord
vamps or Smoke On The Water type things. Of course most early jazz
musicians were probably steeped in the apparent harmonic simplicity
blues too, but the popular music of the day used fairly advanced
harmonies and progressions. Especially in ragtime music which is the
main jumping off point for jazz along with the blues. Ragtime is pretty
complex both harmonically and rhythmically.

--
Joey Goldstein
<a href="http://www.joeygoldstein.com" target="_blank">http://www.joeygoldstein.com</a>
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

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#22: Re: learning tunes w/ numbers (sorry if this is posted twice)

Posted on 2006-01-07 09:38:45 by Joey Goldstein

mylesgtr wrote:
&gt;
&gt; Maybe I should've been a little more clear about why I'm wondering
&gt; about this. If I were trying to quickly learn the changes to a tune
&gt; from somebody on the bandstand, or tell somebody what they were, I
&gt; would be thinking...ok, the bridge is a 2/5/1 in C then a 2/5/1 in Eb.

That's the way somebody else in a band would probably call out changes
to you too.

&gt; But, I'm starting to work on this numbers thing entirely so I can get
&gt; better at on-the-spot transposing...so thinking 2/5 in C to 2/5 in Eb
&gt; isn't going to do me much good if a vocalist at a jam calls Green
&gt; Dolphin Street in Ab...which is why I'd be thinking 2/5/1, up a min3rd,
&gt; 2/5/1, etc.
&gt;
&gt; But, I'm thinking that for a tune w/ a lot of key changes (green
&gt; dolphin wouldn't be one of them), it might be easier to relate it all
&gt; back to the overall key of the tune like the nashville thing.
&gt;
&gt; So, basically, I'm only thinking about this in terms of making
&gt; transposition happen faster.

Do both. Then use your ears.
The common progressions show up in tune after tune after tune and you
will begin to recognize them as just &quot;one of these&quot; and &quot;one of those&quot;.
The uncommon progressions, well you just have to work on them when you
encounter them and then they won't be so uncommon the next time. Ear
training is really about becoming more and more familiar with more and
more sounds.

Also...
If you learn to sing the root progressions of your tunes you begin to
recognize the root movements as a type of familiar melody.

&gt; Thanks,
&gt; Myles

--
Joey Goldstein
<a href="http://www.joeygoldstein.com" target="_blank">http://www.joeygoldstein.com</a>
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

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#23: Re: learning tunes w/ numbers (sorry if this is posted twice)

Posted on 2006-01-07 10:00:40 by mylesgtr

Uggh...i think i wrote that last one about 12 hours ago...google groups
is acting screwy. Sorry to make you repeat yourself, Joey.

Myles

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#24: Re: learning tunes w/ numbers (sorry if this is posted twice)

Posted on 2006-01-07 10:01:57 by mylesgtr

Thanks, Paul. I forgot about that site.

Myles

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#25: Re: learning tunes w/ numbers (sorry if this is posted twice)

Posted on 2006-01-07 10:15:24 by Joey Goldstein

Joey Goldstein wrote:
&gt;
&gt; mylesgtr wrote:
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; But, I'm starting to work on this numbers thing entirely so I can get
&gt; &gt; better at on-the-spot transposing...so thinking 2/5 in C to 2/5 in Eb
&gt; &gt; isn't going to do me much good if a vocalist at a jam calls Green
&gt; &gt; Dolphin Street in Ab...which is why I'd be thinking 2/5/1, up a min3rd,
&gt; &gt; 2/5/1, etc.

If you change the wording of your internal dialogue just slightly you
will essentially be doing harmonic analysis on the fly.
I.e. Instead of thinking: &quot;2/5/1, up a min3rd, 2/5/1, etc.&quot;
Try this on: &quot;2/5/1, up to the key of bIII, 2/5/1, etc.&quot;
That way you've always the got the key of the primary tonic fixed in
your mind.

It doesn't work so well for tunes that don't have a real strong primary
tonic, like Giant Steps, or tunes that have lots of key changes to keys
that are not closely related to the primary tonic (Along Came Betty?).
But for those types of tunes you won't be asked to play them in too many
different keys very often. Transposing tunes like that is good practice
though. You just have to remember longer harmonic phrase lengths and
distant relationships. I.e. The less obvious moves the progression uses
the more new memory work you have cut out for you.


--
Joey Goldstein
<a href="http://www.joeygoldstein.com" target="_blank">http://www.joeygoldstein.com</a>
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

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#26: Re: learning tunes w/ numbers (sorry if this is posted twice)

Posted on 2006-01-07 11:22:27 by mylesgtr

&gt; If you change the wording of your internal dialogue just slightly you
&gt; will essentially be doing harmonic analysis on the fly.
&gt; I.e. Instead of thinking: &quot;2/5/1, up a min3rd, 2/5/1, etc.&quot;
&gt; Try this on: &quot;2/5/1, up to the key of bIII, 2/5/1, etc.&quot;
&gt; That way you've always the got the key of the primary tonic fixed in
&gt; your mind.

Ahhh...THAT makes perfect sense to me. I think that's where my trouble
has come from...I get removed from the original key b/c I'm thinking
&quot;up a minor 3rd&quot; or whatever instead of thinking &quot;in the key of biii&quot;

Thanks Joey, I'll give a few tunes a try this way.

Myles

PS...google seems to be really random about how long my messages take
to appear...anywhere from immediate, to about 12 hours and counting...

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#27: Re: learning tunes w/ numbers (I Could Write A Book)

Posted on 2006-01-07 19:22:45 by Marc Sabatella

&gt; I'm learning &quot;I Could Write a Book&quot; right now, and I want to work on
&gt; it
&gt; in 12 keys, so I thought I'd see how you guys would write this out for
&gt; yourself (or think of it anyway) if you were trying to make it easy to
&gt; learn in 12 keys.

Check my my other post where I express reservations about using written
Roman numerals as your primary memorization aid.

Instead, try *playing* it by ear in a new key. You'll mess up some, of
cours,e but keep trying until you start to hear and see the patterns.
Then try it in yet another key. By the time you've done it in a few
keys, you should hopefully have learned the tune well enough that you
don't have to bother playing it any ore keys to know you could do so if
asked. Your time wil be better spent moving on to a new tune, sice it's
those first few transpositions that teach you the msot. Just make sure
you choose different keys so you get practice in all twelve of them.

&gt; C A-|D- G7| E- A-| D- G7|
&gt; C |E- A7| D- | Bm7b5 E7|
&gt; A- |D- G7|F#m7b5 B7| E- |
&gt; A- | D7 | D- | G7 |
&gt; ...
&gt; Do you think of the 8th and 9th bars as a ii/V to the relative minor
&gt; even though it only goes there for those two bars?

I think about what I hear, which is the root moving down a step (your
ears can't miss that) and then beginning some circle of fifths motion.
The times I might specially think in terms of Roman numerals are to help
me through the parts that otherwise might be hard to hear.

&gt; I'd imagine that after you learn to play 100 tunes in 12 keys,you
&gt; pretty much just hear it and don't really have to think numbers
&gt; anyway,
&gt; but until I can do that, I want to have some kind of a constant system
&gt; to get me through.

And I'd say that system should be to not even start out with Roman
numerals on paper. 50 tunes in 4 keys each should be enough to show
noticeable improvement.

---------------
Marc Sabatella
<a href="mailto:marc&#64;outsideshore.com" target="_blank">marc&#64;outsideshore.com</a>

Music, art, &amp; educational materials
Featuring &quot;A Jazz Improvisation Primer&quot;
<a href="http://www.outsideshore.com/" target="_blank">http://www.outsideshore.com/</a>

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#28: Re: learning tunes w/ numbers (I Could Write A Book)

Posted on 2006-01-07 19:26:01 by Marc Sabatella

&gt; Also..They probably would not have spent their teens playing one chord
&gt; vamps or Smoke On The Water type things.

No did they also have to deal with the complexity tunes with Along Came
Betty or Dolphin Dance or what have you. Basically, *everything* they
ever dealt with used pretty much the same harmonic idioms. There is
more to these standards than &quot;Smoke On The Water&quot;, but what happens
tends to be more predictable and easier to learn to hear than &quot;Along
Came Betty&quot;. So they got lots of practice playing material that was
conducive to this approach in the first place.

---------------
Marc Sabatella
<a href="mailto:marc&#64;outsideshore.com" target="_blank">marc&#64;outsideshore.com</a>

Music, art, &amp; educational materials
Featuring &quot;A Jazz Improvisation Primer&quot;
<a href="http://www.outsideshore.com/" target="_blank">http://www.outsideshore.com/</a>

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