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#1: Joe Pass Right hand

Posted on 2005-11-01 23:21:26 by JP

Any discussion available on this?
Did Joe develop his right hand (without plectrum) in the latter years do you
think?

For single note runs, he seems to only use his first finger...i dont even
see a lot of 1 2 ..or (i m)
There didnt seem to be any evidence of non pick playing on earlier
recordings...is this correct?

Snything on this topic worth sharing please do.

cheers

JP

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#2: Re: Joe Pass Right hand

Posted on 2005-11-01 23:30:55 by tombrown

I think when I saw him live in his later years he was using i-m for
runs. He would switch back and forth between pick and fingers,
occasionally using the pick for fast bebop choruses, fingers the rest
of the time.

I think there is no question that his RH conception was more developed
on his later recordings. On his three nylon-string records you don't
hear any pick at all, and those are some of his best solo albums. On
the Virtuoso records, there is a lot of plectrum--on many tracks the
entire song is all plectrum.

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#3: Re: Joe Pass Right hand

Posted on 2005-11-01 23:41:31 by kjs

I think he used whatever finger happen to feel right at the moment. He
didn't have a system, but I'm pretty sure he didn't only use his index.

The other thing is he used a combination of nail and skin, kept the
nails on the short side.

I know he was using fingers in the early 70's. I don't recall earlier
then that, but throughout his career he would break out the pick for
single line when he really wanted to burn. But he was quite capable of
playing very fast with his fingers as well. Most of his solo playing
was with fingers, but there were certain solo tunes he would play with
a pick, certain orginal blues and Cherokee for example.

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#4: Re: Joe Pass Right hand

Posted on 2005-11-01 23:55:59 by kjs

<a href="mailto:tombrown&#64;jhu.edu" target="_blank">tombrown&#64;jhu.edu</a> wrote:
&gt; On the Virtuoso records, there is a lot of plectrum--on many tracks the
&gt; entire song is all plectrum.

Yes I think 'I' and 'IV' had more plectrum. 'II' and 'III' more
fingerstyle. Actually 'III' maybe all finger style. It was all
orginals.

I think some of 'IV' was actually from the same sessions as 'I'.

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#5: Re: Joe Pass Right hand

Posted on 2005-11-02 04:55:19 by Greg clayton

There are a few examples on his Pacifc Jazz recordings['62 to 65 or so]
where he uses fingers or perhaps pick and fingers Bud shank's Brassamba lp
and Joe's catch me both from '63 in fact.
By 1970 he uses mostly fingers on the sublime lp Intercontiental. BTW
Virtuoso IV is all from the same sessions as#1.
gc
&quot;kjs&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:kjsguitar&#64;hotmail.com" target="_blank">kjsguitar&#64;hotmail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:1130884891.801423.74140&#64;g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1130884891.801423.74140&#64;g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt;I think he used whatever finger happen to feel right at the moment. He
&gt; didn't have a system, but I'm pretty sure he didn't only use his index.
&gt;
&gt; The other thing is he used a combination of nail and skin, kept the
&gt; nails on the short side.
&gt;
&gt; I know he was using fingers in the early 70's. I don't recall earlier
&gt; then that, but throughout his career he would break out the pick for
&gt; single line when he really wanted to burn. But he was quite capable of
&gt; playing very fast with his fingers as well. Most of his solo playing
&gt; was with fingers, but there were certain solo tunes he would play with
&gt; a pick, certain orginal blues and Cherokee for example.
&gt;

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#6: Re: Joe Pass Right hand

Posted on 2005-11-02 13:31:14 by Keith

You may not be aware that Joe was actually left-handed. I noticed him
signing autographs with his left hand and asked him about it. He said
that he was naturally left-handed but had learned to play guitar
right-handed from the start. I believe that this contributed to his
amazing technique. The strength and control of his left hand was quite
obvious in his hammer-ons and pulloffs. He didn't alway pick each note
in some of his fast licks.
Keith

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#7: Re: Joe Pass Right hand

Posted on 2005-11-02 15:06:39 by pmfan57

Greg clayton wrote:
&gt; There are a few examples on his Pacifc Jazz recordings['62 to 65 or so]
&gt; where he uses fingers or perhaps pick and fingers Bud shank's Brassamba lp
&gt; and Joe's catch me both from '63 in fact.
&gt; By 1970 he uses mostly fingers on the sublime lp Intercontiental. BTW
&gt; Virtuoso IV is all from the same sessions as#1.
&gt; gc
&gt; &quot;kjs&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:kjsguitar&#64;hotmail.com" target="_blank">kjsguitar&#64;hotmail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:<a href="mailto:1130884891.801423.74140&#64;g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1130884891.801423.74140&#64;g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt; &gt;I think he used whatever finger happen to feel right at the moment. He
&gt; &gt; didn't have a system, but I'm pretty sure he didn't only use his index.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; The other thing is he used a combination of nail and skin, kept the
&gt; &gt; nails on the short side.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; I know he was using fingers in the early 70's. I don't recall earlier
&gt; &gt; then that, but throughout his career he would break out the pick for
&gt; &gt; single line when he really wanted to burn. But he was quite capable of
&gt; &gt; playing very fast with his fingers as well. Most of his solo playing
&gt; &gt; was with fingers, but there were certain solo tunes he would play with
&gt; &gt; a pick, certain orginal blues and Cherokee for example.
&gt; &gt;

On Intercontinental, Joe is definitely using a pick for his single note
solos. This is a great guitar trio album; one of the best. For some
of his more chordal melody statements it sounds like he's using pick
and fingers or putting the pick in his mouth. But for the regular
melody and for solos, it's the Joe Pass plectrum sound of that period.
For more great plectrum Pass from this period, get the two Art Van
Damme albums. Superb playing from Pass.

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#8: Re: Joe Pass Right hand

Posted on 2005-11-02 15:21:48 by jurupari

You may not be aware that Joe was actually left-handed

xxxxxxxxxxx

Wow! I sure wasn't. I am too, and he's always been my main baseball
card, pretty much. Thanks for posting that!

I saw Joe live from a few feet away in Northampton Mass a couple of
times, I think maybe 1982 and '86. I'm beginning to realize that he
was going after new techniques later on, so keep in mind this is what
he was doing at that time.

He played fingerstyle most of the time, and as I recall played lines
mostly legato, picking as was said with one finger to my best
recollection.

He held a piece of a pick in his mouth (I chatted with him afterward
and he showed me the pick and his nails, since I was curious about how
long would be about right - his were pretty short) and went to that
when he wanted a more articulated line.

I wanted to add that his lines in these two performances were often
played with thumb and all fingers too if it was wider interval, broken
chord type thing. this could include hammered and pulled notes too,
usually over a familiar grip, with a little extra legato compared to
his other lines.

Some of the prettiest stuff I got to hear him play was out of this
type of configuration.

He did most of the gig and the set I listened to standing outside in
pretty strict meter. a little rubato, but even that was usually
metered. But he played around, too - it was pretty loose and enjoyable
- he took requests, including mine for Invitation and knocked me out,
as expected. Loved his take!

When he did take liberties with the time, he'd get into spontaneous
reharm, and those moments were incredible to me.

Anyway, that's the way it was then, but later, I'm told he went into
hybrid, playing with pick and fingers, but I didn't see that in those
two sets in the '80's. I was playing hybrid at the time, and hadn't
made the switch to fingerstyle, so I'd have noticed if my hero was
doing it for sure. :o)

I don't think I saw i-m unless it was really slow, but I can't really
say - I was pretty wowed by everything else he had going on.

Clif

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#9: Re: Joe Pass Right hand

Posted on 2005-11-02 16:02:04 by kjs

Keith wrote:
&gt; You may not be aware that Joe was actually left-handed. I noticed him
&gt; signing autographs with his left hand and asked him about it. He said
&gt; that he was naturally left-handed but had learned to play guitar
&gt; right-handed from the start. I believe that this contributed to his
&gt; amazing technique. The strength and control of his left hand was quite
&gt; obvious in his hammer-ons and pulloffs. He didn't alway pick each note
&gt; in some of his fast licks.

George Van Eps was left-handed as well. Kinda interesting as the
control he showed with his left hand is legendary.

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#10: Re: Joe Pass Right hand

Posted on 2005-11-02 20:18:20 by tombrown

Keith wrote:
&gt; You may not be aware that Joe was actually left-handed. I noticed him
&gt; signing autographs with his left hand and asked him about it. He said
&gt; that he was naturally left-handed but had learned to play guitar
&gt; right-handed from the start. I believe that this contributed to his
&gt; amazing technique. The strength and control of his left hand was quite
&gt; obvious in his hammer-ons and pulloffs. He didn't alway pick each note
&gt; in some of his fast licks.

I recently acquired some excellent transcriptions of some of the
Virtuoso stuff, where the transcriber was able with good accuracy to
locate Joe's LH fingering. I picked up a few of Joe's ergonomic tricks.
For example, he played ascending sextuplets by fingering them so that
he only needed to use two pick strokes: sweep-hammer-on,
sweep-hammer-on. I found this trick in a number of the plectrum
passages.

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#11: Re: Joe Pass Right hand

Posted on 2005-11-02 20:22:02 by Dan Adler

Is that the japanese &quot;virtuoso&quot; book?

-Dan
<a href="http://danadler.com" target="_blank">http://danadler.com</a>

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#12: Re: Joe Pass Right hand

Posted on 2005-11-02 21:09:50 by Greg clayton

&quot;pmfan57&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:jwragusa&#64;aol.com" target="_blank">jwragusa&#64;aol.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;
&gt; On Intercontinental, Joe is definitely using a pick for his single note
&gt; solos. This is a great guitar trio album; one of the best. For some
&gt; of his more chordal melody statements it sounds like he's using pick
&gt; and fingers or putting the pick in his mouth. But for the regular
&gt; melody and for solos, it's the Joe Pass plectrum sound of that period.
&gt; For more great plectrum Pass from this period, get the two Art Van
&gt; Damme albums. Superb playing from Pass.

PM Fan,
I talked to Joe at length about that album and he
said he used fingers only on most single lines on Intercontiental. When
I mentioned his pick use on I Love You he replied &quot; I got the Feeling&quot;
It came up because we were talking about fingers vs pick and he also said
he switched to a very thin pick so it would sound closer to his nails sound
and therefore be less of an obvious switch when he grabbed the pick . He was
aware that his single lines sound got a bit thinner sounding but decided to
compromise fingers ...better chord facility, pick better single lines
at least in regard to speed clarity.
Check his single lines sound on Pacific Jazz lp's fatter, better attack,
less sluring. Intercontinental was a sort of transitional period for Joe.
Like many of us he agonised about the pick or fingers problem.
BTW we were talking about group playing not solo guitar.
Also the Art vanDamn sessions are from the same time period[perhaps even
the same sessions] and though commercial are very tasty and artfull.
gc

&gt;

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#13: Re: Joe Pass Right hand

Posted on 2005-11-02 21:37:40 by pmfan57

Greg clayton wrote:
&gt; &quot;pmfan57&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:jwragusa&#64;aol.com" target="_blank">jwragusa&#64;aol.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; On Intercontinental, Joe is definitely using a pick for his single note
&gt; &gt; solos. This is a great guitar trio album; one of the best. For some
&gt; &gt; of his more chordal melody statements it sounds like he's using pick
&gt; &gt; and fingers or putting the pick in his mouth. But for the regular
&gt; &gt; melody and for solos, it's the Joe Pass plectrum sound of that period.
&gt; &gt; For more great plectrum Pass from this period, get the two Art Van
&gt; &gt; Damme albums. Superb playing from Pass.
&gt;
&gt; PM Fan,
&gt; I talked to Joe at length about that album and he
&gt; said he used fingers only on most single lines on Intercontiental. When
&gt; I mentioned his pick use on I Love You he replied &quot; I got the Feeling&quot;
&gt; It came up because we were talking about fingers vs pick and he also said
&gt; he switched to a very thin pick so it would sound closer to his nails sound
&gt; and therefore be less of an obvious switch when he grabbed the pick . He was
&gt; aware that his single lines sound got a bit thinner sounding but decided to
&gt; compromise fingers ...better chord facility, pick better single lines
&gt; at least in regard to speed clarity.
&gt; Check his single lines sound on Pacific Jazz lp's fatter, better attack,
&gt; less sluring. Intercontinental was a sort of transitional period for Joe.
&gt; Like many of us he agonised about the pick or fingers problem.
&gt; BTW we were talking about group playing not solo guitar.
&gt; Also the Art vanDamn sessions are from the same time period[perhaps even
&gt; the same sessions] and though commercial are very tasty and artfull.
&gt; gc
&gt;
&gt; &gt;

I think he used a pick on I Love You. He never sounded like Pacific
Jazz again after the pacific jazz era. I don't know why. It's not
just switching picks. He's somewhat less bop rhythmically after that,
although the lines are still bebop.


As to the Art Van Damme sessions, there is no doubt he used a pick on
that. Way too fast for fingers. That's classic &quot;in between eras&quot; Joe
Pass plectrum playing. He also used a pick on the live concord album
with Herb Ellis and Two for the Road. Actually lots of group sessions
on which he was called upon to take a solo featured a pick.

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#14: Re: Joe Pass Right hand

Posted on 2005-11-02 21:42:58 by tombrown

No, I got the Roland Leone book.

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#15: Re: Joe Pass Right hand

Posted on 2005-11-02 21:50:17 by markr

&quot;By 1970 he uses mostly fingers on the sublime lp Intercontiental. &quot;
============================
On Intercontinental it sounds like he switches between fingerstyle for
the heads and pick for the up tempo soloing. His single note lines on
&quot;I love You&quot; are especially burning. I'm thinking he must have done
that with a pick.

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#16: Re: Joe Pass Right hand

Posted on 2005-11-02 22:04:27 by markr

I talked to Joe at length about that album and he
said he used fingers only on most single lines on Intercontiental.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

wow! if that's true, then he was even more of a monster that I thought.

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#17: Re: Joe Pass Right hand

Posted on 2005-11-03 00:11:59 by JP

This has all come about for me cause i have transcribed quite a bit of Joe
just of late.
I seem to always com back to my favs.

And for once i have got some of his chordal and single line puctuations
exact. And as a not so strong right hand player..though i did have a
classical period when i was young and im no slouch in the area..im also not
great in the area.
And as Joe i would have thought was a plectrum player first and foremost who
slowly moved over to no pick.
But the speed and clarity of his execution is outstanding which now leads me
to wonder whether in his early days with his dad..the bit you read about a
lot..&quot;fill it up&quot;...if he was a finger player back then. Cause you just
dont decide to use fingers at 25 years of age or 30 and then become a
proficient. Especially when you consider he would have had continual
playing dates where he would have to resort to a tried and tested approach.
BUT..it is Joe Pass..and we are talking about the exception..

IF &quot;I LOVE YOU&quot; on incontinental is pick..then im totally agasp. I have no
reason to disbelieve the contributor here that had the discussion with Joe.
But..that solo is burnin...totally burnin..especially the end on tag
sequence at end. If that is fingers..then perhaps his whole discussion is
over...because at that speed and those lines..off the cuff...He must have
had great right hand from day one.

Long live Joe Pass in our memories forever.

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#18: Re: Joe Pass Right hand

Posted on 2005-11-03 00:34:23 by Dan Adler

&quot;I Love You&quot; from Intercontinental is all pick. It's transcribed on my
site along with other solos of his from that era.

If you're trying to match Pass pick articulation, you have to keep in
mind that he used Django picking: he always picks down when changing
strings even upwards.

He explains this on his lines video briefly and in some of his books,
but that doesn't give you any hint how many years it will take you to
get used to playing that way...

-Dan
<a href="http://danadler.com" target="_blank">http://danadler.com</a>

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#19: Re: Joe Pass Right hand

Posted on 2005-11-03 02:00:53 by Greg clayton

JP wrote

I have no
&gt; reason to disbelieve the contributor here that had the discussion with
&gt; Joe. But..that solo is burnin...totally burnin..especially the end on tag
&gt; sequence at end. If that is fingers..then perhaps his whole discussion is
&gt; over...
JP,

I mentioned that I love you was Pick according to Joe.
gc

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#20: Re: Joe Pass Right hand

Posted on 2005-11-03 03:02:44 by JP

Sorry Greg. I misread.


&quot;Greg clayton&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:gregclayton&#64;videotron.ca" target="_blank">gregclayton&#64;videotron.ca</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:5ldaf.95575$<a href="mailto:7z1.2137167&#64;wagner.videotron.net..." target="_blank">7z1.2137167&#64;wagner.videotron.net...</a>
&gt; JP wrote
&gt;
&gt; I have no
&gt;&gt; reason to disbelieve the contributor here that had the discussion with
&gt;&gt; Joe. But..that solo is burnin...totally burnin..especially the end on tag
&gt;&gt; sequence at end. If that is fingers..then perhaps his whole discussion
&gt;&gt; is over...
&gt; JP,
&gt;
&gt; I mentioned that I love you was Pick according to Joe.
&gt; gc
&gt;

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#21: Re: Joe Pass Right hand

Posted on 2005-11-03 04:20:45 by pmfan57

JP wrote:
&gt; Sorry Greg. I misread.
&gt;
&gt;
Greg's post was not clear in this regard. It sounded like he was
implying that Joe Pass may have refuted Greg's suggestion to him that
he used a pick on I Love You. &quot;I got the feeling&quot; doesn't really mean
anything, out of context. Now, reading back, I guess Greg meant that
Joe Pass was saying &quot;I got the feeling during the recording session
that I should use a pick on that one&quot; or something to that effect.

Joe

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#22: Re: Joe Pass Right hand

Posted on 2005-11-03 05:32:13 by markr

I took it to mean that Joe thought he got the feeling - in the
performance of I Love You - of using pick even though he was using his
fingers.

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#23: Re: Joe Pass Right hand

Posted on 2005-11-03 06:48:01 by ottguit

Also the Art vanDamn sessions are from the same time period[perhaps
even
the same sessions] and though commercial are very tasty and artfull.
gc
Art pun intended??

Bg

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#24: Re: Joe Pass Right hand

Posted on 2005-11-03 06:54:04 by ottguit

I just picked up a Clark Terry Live at Montreux DVD with the Oscar
Peterson group with Jos Pass, Milt Jackson,a Young NHOP(a live concert
from 1977) .
Joe Burns as usual on that one(with Pick) and playing his D'Angelico.
Bg

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#25: Re: Joe Pass Right hand

Posted on 2005-11-03 13:40:03 by Keith

You mean his &quot;D'Aquisto&quot;
Keith

<a href="mailto:ottguit&#64;hotmail.com" target="_blank">ottguit&#64;hotmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt; I just picked up a Clark Terry Live at Montreux DVD with the Oscar
&gt; Peterson group with Jos Pass, Milt Jackson,a Young NHOP(a live concert
&gt; from 1977) .
&gt; Joe Burns as usual on that one(with Pick) and playing his D'Angelico.
&gt; Bg

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#26: Re: Joe Pass Right hand

Posted on 2005-11-03 15:11:27 by pmfan57

markr wrote:
&gt; I took it to mean that Joe thought he got the feeling - in the
&gt; performance of I Love You - of using pick even though he was using his
&gt; fingers.

Nope. Since it is clear that he used a pick, and even Greg says that's
what he meant. It must have meant something along the lines of what I
said. I don't know why the normally plain spoken Pass didn't just say
&quot;yup, felt like using a pick on that one.&quot;

But he definitely used a pick. Even Paco de Lucia couldn't get that
sound with his fingers.

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#27: Re: Joe Pass Right hand

Posted on 2005-11-03 15:36:55 by Dan Adler

On Intercontinental Pass used a pick on Chloe as well as I Love You.

Simplicity is another one where it's mostlly fingers but 2-3 cuts have
some brilliant pick work.

-Dan
<a href="http://danadler.com" target="_blank">http://danadler.com</a>

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#28: Re: Joe Pass Right hand

Posted on 2005-11-03 15:49:37 by kjs

Dan Adler wrote:
&gt; If you're trying to match Pass pick articulation, you have to keep in
&gt; mind that he used Django picking: he always picks down when changing
&gt; strings even upwards.
&gt;
&gt; He explains this on his lines video briefly and in some of his books,
&gt; but that doesn't give you any hint how many years it will take you to
&gt; get used to playing that way...

That's a great point. Not that there's anything wrong with alternate
picking or any other system, but...

When I first picked up the guitar and wasn't even aware of a system
that's the way I picked. Hand brushing (not quite anchored) on the
pickguard and kind of a circular motion to get back up to a lower
string on the down stroke. I was able to build speed on the scales I
was practicing rather easily. When I finally went for lesson's my
teacher made me change to alternate. I think the Django method is
actually more natural on some level and it adds a certain definition to
your playing (as Joe said). I wish I never changed. (Although with the
teachers I had it wasn't much of an option). I wonder how many other
guy's have the same story.

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#29: Re: Joe Pass Right hand

Posted on 2005-11-03 16:23:40 by markr

&quot;Nope. Since it is clear that he used a pick, and even Greg says
that's
what he meant.&quot;
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
okay, then I was correct in my initial assumption that he was playing
that with a pick. It SOUNDS like pick to me.

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#30: Re: Joe Pass Right hand

Posted on 2005-11-04 06:21:27 by kurtWITHOUTTHESPAMshapiro

I find I tend to rely on that kind of thing a lot when I don't have a
pick -- mainly 'cause my RH sux.


&lt;<a href="mailto:tombrown&#64;jhu.edu" target="_blank">tombrown&#64;jhu.edu</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:1130959100.098598.8110&#64;g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1130959100.098598.8110&#64;g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt;
&gt; I recently acquired some excellent transcriptions of some of the
&gt; Virtuoso stuff, where the transcriber was able with good accuracy to
&gt; locate Joe's LH fingering. I picked up a few of Joe's ergonomic tricks.
&gt; For example, he played ascending sextuplets by fingering them so that
&gt; he only needed to use two pick strokes: sweep-hammer-on,
&gt; sweep-hammer-on. I found this trick in a number of the plectrum
&gt; passages.
&gt;

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#31: Re: Joe Pass Right hand

Posted on 2005-11-04 14:09:39 by ottguit

Hi Keith,
Re:You mean his &quot;D'Aquisto&quot;
Well I can't see clearly, but it's the same Guitar Joe plays on a few
tunes on the &quot;Genius of Joe Pass&quot; Solo DVD.
It has that round decorative thingee in the end of the headstock which
I believe the New D'angelicore-issues have as well?
Bg

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