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#1: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-06 16:48:16 by rickfrossyouknowwhattodo

I am trying to learn this tune..anyone have a simple harminc explanation to
the 2nd 8 bars?

Bb7 Fm7/C Dbm6 Bb7/D Eb Cm B9 Bbm7 Eb7
// // // // // / / // //

thanks
rick

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#2: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-06 17:23:00 by rickfrossyouknowwhattodo

duh..I mean the 2nd 4 bars

&quot;Rick Ross&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:rickfrossyouknowwhattodo&#64;hotmail.com" target="_blank">rickfrossyouknowwhattodo&#64;hotmail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:QaSye.39773$<a href="mailto:J12.21203&#64;newssvr14.news.prodigy.com..." target="_blank">J12.21203&#64;newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...</a>
&gt;I am trying to learn this tune..anyone have a simple harminc explanation to
&gt;the 2nd 8 bars?
&gt;
&gt; Bb7 Fm7/C Dbm6 Bb7/D Eb Cm B9 Bbm7 Eb7
&gt; // // // // // / / //
&gt; //
&gt;
&gt; thanks
&gt; rick
&gt;
&gt;

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#3: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-06 17:32:49 by Mike

Well, it seems as if the first two bars are just a movement from Bb7
with Bb in the bass up to D in the bass, resolving to Eb using passing
chords. I think the Fm7?c could be a Cm7 and the Dbm6 could also be
Dbdim. The Cm and B9 in bar 3 are not necessary--I imagine they're
only there to fortify bass movement. These definitely don't look like
lead sheet changes.

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#4: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-06 17:59:49 by sgcim

The Cm B9 Bbm7 Eb7 are just iii, bIII9, ii7, V7 in Ab, the key that the
bridge starts in.
You should've said that you're playing the song in Eb, it's not that
clear from the progression.

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#5: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-06 18:41:29 by Joey Goldstein

Rick Ross wrote:
&gt;
&gt; I am trying to learn this tune..anyone have a simple harminc explanation to
&gt; the 2nd 8 bars?
&gt;
&gt; Bb7 Fm7/C Dbm6 Bb7/D Eb Cm B9 Bbm7 Eb7
&gt; // // // // // / / // //

The 1st part is just an elaboration of Bb7, V7 in this key.

Bb7 / / / | / / / / |Eb
becomes
Bb7 / Fm7/C / |Dbm6 / Bb7/D / |Eb

Fm7 and Dbm6 are both chords that have, in this context, tones in them
that seek to resolve to tones in Bb7.
More &quot;normal&quot; would be to have Bb7 on the strong downbeat of the 2nd
measure of the figure.
I.e.
S W S
Bb7 / Fm7 / |Bb7
In this case the Fm7 would be called an auxiliary chord (i.e. there are
two axiliary tones decorating the tones of Bb7; D-Eb-D, and Bb-C-Bb) or
possibly, depending on the voicings an unprepared approach chord. [More
than 1 auxiliary tone constitutes an auxiliary chord.]

or
S W S
Bb7 / Fm7/C / |Bb7/D
In this case the Fm7 would be called an passing chord (i.e. there are
two passing tones involved between the tones of Bb7; Bb-C-D, and
D-Eb-F). [More than 1 passing tone constitutes a passing chord.]

The Dbm6 comes between Fm7 and its expected resolution back to Bb7. It
is a decoration of the original decoration.
Imagine a simplified version of the bass line:
Bb7
Bb / C / |D
The C here is a simple passing tone, a decoration of the movement from
Bb to D.

In the following line the C# serves as a decoration of the decoration,
i.e. a chrom passing tone between the original PT, C, and its
resolution, D.
Bb7
Bb / C C# |D

Now, one of the criteria for a note to be called a passing tone is that
it is on a weaker metrical position than its resolution. When weak notes
are placed on strong beats and resolve to strong notes on weak beats the
device is called an appoggiatura. So, in the line:
Bb7
Bb / C / |C# / D / |
the C#, by virtue of it being on a stronger beat than the D, is called
an appoggiatura rather than a passing tone.
[Appoggiatura means &quot;to lean&quot;].

The Fb in the Dbm6 chord is also an App that resolves to F on the
following chord.
So, Dbm6, possessing 2 appoggiaturas, is called an appoggiatura chord.
This chord can also be seen as Bbm7b5 which brings into focus more the
movements of Db to D and Fb to F.

If it's easier to think of them both as passing chords that's fine. But
appoggiaturas and appoggiatura chords have a different feel to them, IMO.

The Eb / Cm Cb7 |Bbm7
is similar in that there are a series of passing chords joining Eb to
Bbm7.

Here's what a typical jazz harmonic analysis might look like:
Eb:
V7 IIm7 Vm7b5 V7 I VIm SubV7/V \IIm7___V7/IV IV
Bb7 / Fm7/C / |Dbm6 / Bb7 / |Eb / Cm Cb7 |Bbm7 / Eb7 |Ab
[What I've called Vm7b5 might also be labeled as #VIm6.]

Here's what a typical classical harmonic analysis might look like. But
in a classical analysis the notation of the actual music being played
would be present. Any Apps or PT's would be labeled above or below the
actual notes in whatever voice they appear in:
Eb:
V7 ii7 |V7 |I vi +6 |\ii7___V7/IV |IV

[Note: What we call SubV7/V is known to a classical musician as the
&quot;augmented 6th chord&quot;. Its root is on b6 of the key [in jazz/pop terms
we might call this Cb(add#6)] and it normally resolves to I by first
passing through V7. The movement to ii7/IV and the fact that the chord
built on the tonic is a secondary dominant, V7/IV, would have to be seen
as a deceptive cadence of sorts for the aug 6th chord.]

[Classical musicians have no conception of the tritone substitute
dominant. It is absent in CPP classical music so they don't consider
music that uses tritone subs to be &quot;Tonal&quot; music. They call it &quot;jazz&quot;.
In jazz we have SubV7, SubV7/IIm, SubV7/IIm, SubV7/IV, SubV7/V, and
SubV7/VIm. The only things similar in classical music are the &quot;aug 6th
chord&quot; (analagous to our SubV7/V) and the Neapolitan chord (which is a
maj chord built on Sb2, similar to but also different from our SubV7
chord). The Neapolitan chord would never have a b7 or a #6 added to it
(except as some sort of non-essential tone). It is always major in
quality. It is seen as a chord with subdominant rather than dominant
function, and it usually is in 1st inversion, i.e. with the subdominant
of the key in the bass. Eg. Db/F in the key of C.]


--
Joey Goldstein
<a href="http://www.joeygoldstein.com" target="_blank">http://www.joeygoldstein.com</a>
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

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#6: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-06 19:04:50 by oasysco

My gawd, man! It takes 3 printed pages to explain 4 bars of music? I
guess it's true what I say, &quot;music is the shorthand of the language of
the heart&quot; 'cause writin' sure 'aint &lt;g&gt;

Greg

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#7: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-06 19:26:46 by Joey Goldstein

oasysco wrote:
&gt;
&gt; My gawd, man! It takes 3 printed pages to explain 4 bars of music?

No it doesn't. But it can.
If you don't enjoy thinking about these aspects of music then just don't
read my posts.

&gt; I
&gt; guess it's true what I say, &quot;music is the shorthand of the language of
&gt; the heart&quot; 'cause writin' sure 'aint &lt;g&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Greg

--
Joey Goldstein
<a href="http://www.joeygoldstein.com" target="_blank">http://www.joeygoldstein.com</a>
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

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#8: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-06 19:48:28 by Mike

If you don't enjoy thinking about these aspects of music then just
don't
read my posts.

I appreciate the pedantic aspect of your post, but I could do without
the attitude.

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#9: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-06 20:32:02 by rickfrossyouknowwhattodo

greg
if you read JG's comprehensive and articulate reply carefully you'll see he
offers the simple tools for survival over that passage in the first few
lines:
&quot;.....The 1st part is just an elaboration of Bb7, V7 in this key.

Bb7 / / / | / / / / |Eb
becomes
Bb7 / Fm7/C / |Dbm6 / Bb7/D / |Eb...&quot;

In a pinch you could live with that on the bandstand and make it through the
tune..

Once you make the transition to studying and playing jazz guitar I think you
will see more usefulness to JG's analysis. I am sitting here with my guitar
right now working on this and attempting to understand his deeper harmonic
angles and how it all works on the instrument. And also where these
mechanisms are present in other tunes I know. Personally I am trying to
expand my tune base with songs that have different harmonic movement other
than the &quot;How High The Moon&quot;, &quot;Out of Nowhere&quot; type stuff. JG's post is
truly kind of a freebie lesson of sorts..so I appreciate the thoroughness of
his response.



&quot;oasysco&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:oasysco&#64;cox.net" target="_blank">oasysco&#64;cox.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:1120669490.661125.218610&#64;z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1120669490.661125.218610&#64;z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt; My gawd, man! It takes 3 printed pages to explain 4 bars of music? I
&gt; guess it's true what I say, &quot;music is the shorthand of the language of
&gt; the heart&quot; 'cause writin' sure 'aint &lt;g&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Greg
&gt;

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#10: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-06 20:53:05 by KevinW

Rick Ross wrote:

JG's post is
&gt; truly kind of a freebie lesson of sorts..so I appreciate the thoroughness of
&gt; his response.
&gt;

I very much agree. Joey tends to give stuff that you can work on for
quite some time. A good thing. And one can always choose not to wade
through it - I tend to file them and at one point or another I'm working
on something in particular and definitely refer to his posts. Thanks Joey.


KevinW

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#11: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-06 20:59:31 by petekerez

On Wed, 06 Jul 2005 12:41:29 -0400, Joey Goldstein wrote:

&lt;snipped in the interest of brevity, but read the post!&gt;

Once again, Joey, you have made me feel almost smart. Thanks for
the lesson.

Texas Pete

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#12: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-06 21:00:10 by petekerez

On 6 Jul 2005 10:48:28 -0700, &quot;mike&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:ionahoopii&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">ionahoopii&#64;yahoo.com</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt; If you don't enjoy thinking about these aspects of music then just
&gt;don't
&gt;read my posts.
&gt;
&gt;I appreciate the pedantic aspect of your post, but I could do without
&gt;the attitude.
&gt;

Then do without and remain an ignoramus. No likee, no clickee.

You go, Joey!

Texas Pete

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#13: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-06 21:21:26 by oasysco

Touchey, eh, Joey. Guess you didn't see my smiley face.

Greg

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#14: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-06 21:24:22 by oasysco

I'm so misunderstood, Rick. I was kidding and had hoped that the smily
face (&lt;g&gt;) I included would make that clear without having to say
something like &quot;I'm getting ready to kid around... do the kid around
thing... OK, I'm now done kidding around&quot;.

Greg

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#15: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-06 21:26:20 by oasysco

Argghhh! Doesn't &lt;g&gt; mean anything to you guys???? Geezsch. And yes,
I'd vote for Bush if he were to run again!

Greg

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#16: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-06 21:27:53 by oasysco

Oh, I see the problem... it's where I placed the &lt;g&gt;. The &lt;g&gt; was
supposed to apply to the whole post, not just the last sentence... oh,
forget it; it's not worth it.

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#17: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-06 22:08:34 by ottguit

Hey Greg,

I was pretty durned sure you were kidding, based on your personality
shown in all your other posts,it seemed out of character, but I didn't
recognize that &lt;g&gt; as a Smiley Face, being more used to :) or
something.
Bg

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#18: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-06 22:20:46 by rickfrossyouknowwhattodo

greg
you're clearly a very nice guy..and I gather you did not intend to start
some kinda battle here..but, geez, this is a &quot;jazz guitar&quot; group to which
you post frequently, yet, one easily infers from much of your input that you
are not actively involved in &quot;jazz guitar playing or studying&quot;...the fact
that the regulars here embrace your often off-topic postings is a testimony
to your easily recognizable enthusiasm for music in general and your
engaging personality...and to the affability of the general membership..
anyway, it took me back a bit, when JG's eloquent and insightful reply was
interpeted by you as excessive..when, were you actually a student of this
tormenting enterprise, you would understand the lasting value of a post like
JG's...analyzing tunes from a theoretical perspective is a critical tool
when it comes to soloing, harmonizing on the guitar and struggling through a
funky chart on a gig when all you have is about one minute to figure out
what is going on in the song before the count in..
despite some old &quot;issues&quot; between my self and the eminent Mr. G., I still
have to say that his posts do not go unnoticed by myself and are often
printed out and referred to when time allows..in a discussion group which is
all too often mired gear threads, etc he is a much valued resource and,
since I am still fumbling at the bottom of this jazz guitar mountain and he
has the summit in sight, he has my respect..
could it be time for you to clean out your band room and set up one amp and
a music stand? &lt;g&gt;
peace and good luck





&quot;oasys&lt;<a href="mailto:oasysco&#64;cox.net" target="_blank">oasysco&#64;cox.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:1120677861.936208.143620&#64;g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1120677861.936208.143620&#64;g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt; I'm so misunderstood, Rick. I was kidding and had hoped that the smily
&gt; face (&lt;g&gt;) I included would make that clear without having to say
&gt; something like &quot;I'm getting ready to kid around... do the kid around
&gt; thing... OK, I'm now done kidding around&quot;.
&gt;
&gt; Greg
&gt;

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#19: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-06 22:27:38 by oasysco

Bg,

Sometimes my newsreader turns :) into a real graphic smiley face which
doesn't post correctly, so I used the &lt;g&gt;, which means &quot;grin&quot; (I
think), which (hopefully) implies joking around.

Yes, I was kidding as I respect JoeyG and most others here as being &quot;as
high above (me) as (I) am above the amoeba&quot; when it comes to music (nod
to old Star Trek episode).

Could you imagine my e-persona really poo-poo'ing a discussion on
theory by folks who actually have a good grasp of it? By the same
token, it is funny (in a way unique to the arts) that 4 bars of music
can generate so much discussion. Same could be said of a part of a
painting or the expression on a face of a sculpture.

Greg

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#20: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-06 22:53:16 by petekerez

On Wed, 06 Jul 2005 20:20:46 GMT, &quot;Rick Ross&quot; wrote:

&gt; analyzing tunes from a theoretical perspective is a critical tool
&gt;when it comes to soloing, harmonizing on the guitar and struggling through a
&gt;funky chart on a gig when all you have is about one minute to figure out
&gt;what is going on in the song before the count in.

I'm *so* envious that some of y'all get to enjoy an entire minute
for figuring. There's been plenty evenings that I've had so much less
time than that but that's what ears are for, eh. No time to
intellectualize, just make-a-da-music. Joey's posts are absolutely
wonderful homework though, and I thank him for them. Profusely.

Texas Pete

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#21: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-06 23:16:56 by rickfrossyouknowwhattodo

part of that minute is the intro..:)

&quot;Pete Kerezman&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:petekerez&#64;aol.com" target="_blank">petekerez&#64;aol.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:42cc40b3.6403230&#64;news.intcomm.net..." target="_blank">42cc40b3.6403230&#64;news.intcomm.net...</a>
&gt; On Wed, 06 Jul 2005 20:20:46 GMT, &quot;Rick Ross&quot; wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; analyzing tunes from a theoretical perspective is a critical tool
&gt;&gt;when it comes to soloing, harmonizing on the guitar and struggling through
&gt;&gt;a
&gt;&gt;funky chart on a gig when all you have is about one minute to figure out
&gt;&gt;what is going on in the song before the count in.
&gt;
&gt; I'm *so* envious that some of y'all get to enjoy an entire minute
&gt; for figuring. There's been plenty evenings that I've had so much less
&gt; time than that but that's what ears are for, eh. No time to
&gt; intellectualize, just make-a-da-music. Joey's posts are absolutely
&gt; wonderful homework though, and I thank him for them. Profusely.
&gt;
&gt; Texas Pete

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#22: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-06 23:26:06 by tombrown

oasysco wrote:
&gt; Argghhh! Doesn't &lt;g&gt; mean anything to you guys???? Geezsch.

I knew you were kidding.

&gt; And yes,
&gt; I'd vote for Bush if he were to run again!

That's not funny.

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#23: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-06 23:40:19 by tombrown

For Greg, here's a briefer way to say the same thing:

&quot;Whoever wrote that Bb lick is thinking bass line first, and then
thickening the bass line with chords that are either inversions of Bb
or that want to resolve to Bb.&quot;

It's a standard technique that arrangers use to come up with
interesting reharms. You start by finding a good bass line that works
under the melody. Then you find other notes that sound good in between
the bass line and the melody. Then you put it on a record, and the
theoreticians come along and name your new chords and explain how they
work.

The specific lick being discussed here is pretty generic. What Joey
laid down would be a real good lesson for the aspiring jazz player to
get into his ears. It's not esoteric or overly intellectualized in the
slightest--it's a fundamental piece of the jazz language going back
seven decades or more.

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#24: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-07 02:21:17 by Joey Goldstein

KevinW wrote:
&gt;
&gt; Rick Ross wrote:
&gt;
&gt; JG's post is
&gt; &gt; truly kind of a freebie lesson of sorts..so I appreciate the thoroughness of
&gt; &gt; his response.
&gt; &gt;
&gt;
&gt; I very much agree. Joey tends to give stuff that you can work on for
&gt; quite some time. A good thing. And one can always choose not to wade
&gt; through it - I tend to file them and at one point or another I'm working
&gt; on something in particular and definitely refer to his posts. Thanks Joey.
&gt;
&gt; KevinW

Youse guys are all very welcome to it.

I learn stuff here too from y'all.
That's what I'm here for actually, the sharing of knowledge.

It's a nice hang and everything but with everybody spread out all over
the World I'm not really here looking for new friends. If some of that
happens, well that's even better, but that's not why I read this group.

--
Joey Goldstein
<a href="http://www.joeygoldstein.com" target="_blank">http://www.joeygoldstein.com</a>
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

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#25: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-07 02:22:58 by Joey Goldstein

mike wrote:
&gt;
&gt; If you don't enjoy thinking about these aspects of music then just
&gt; don't
&gt; read my posts.
&gt;
&gt; I appreciate the pedantic aspect of your post, but I could do without
&gt; the attitude.

Well if you've read my stuff over the many years I've been here you'd
know whatr my attitude is.
If you don't like it then piss off.

--
Joey Goldstein
<a href="http://www.joeygoldstein.com" target="_blank">http://www.joeygoldstein.com</a>
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

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#26: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-07 02:24:14 by Joey Goldstein

oasysco wrote:
&gt;
&gt; Argghhh! Doesn't &lt;g&gt;
&gt; mean anything to you guys????

Your mother's a whore. &lt;g&gt;

&gt; Geezsch. And yes,
&gt; I'd vote for Bush if he were to run again!
&gt;
&gt; Greg

--
Joey Goldstein
<a href="http://www.joeygoldstein.com" target="_blank">http://www.joeygoldstein.com</a>
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

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#27: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-07 02:32:15 by Joey Goldstein

&quot;<a href="mailto:tombrown&#64;jhu.edu" target="_blank">tombrown&#64;jhu.edu</a>&quot; wrote:
&gt;
&gt; For Greg, here's a briefer way to say the same thing:
&gt;
&gt; &quot;Whoever wrote that Bb lick is thinking bass line first, and then
&gt; thickening the bass line with chords that are either inversions of Bb
&gt; or that want to resolve to Bb.&quot;
&gt;
&gt; It's a standard technique that arrangers use to come up with
&gt; interesting reharms. You start by finding a good bass line that works
&gt; under the melody. Then you find other notes that sound good in between
&gt; the bass line and the melody. Then you put it on a record, and the
&gt; theoreticians come along and name your new chords and explain how they
&gt; work.
&gt;
&gt; The specific lick being discussed here is pretty generic. What Joey
&gt; laid down would be a real good lesson for the aspiring jazz player to
&gt; get into his ears. It's not esoteric or overly intellectualized in the
&gt; slightest--it's a fundamental piece of the jazz language going back
&gt; seven decades or more.

I think the only places I may have gone into info-overdrive on this post
are the places where I'm attempting to differentiate from the classical
analysis approach and the jazz analysis approach.
The rest of it was fairly simplistic, I thought.

Certainly knowing the criteria for a passing tone, chrom passing tone,
appoggiatura, unprepared approach note, etc. is not necessary to be a
good jazz player. They're all just various categorizations of neighbor
tones. If you've got some ways to use neighbor tones that sound good
that's all you need. But it doesn't hurt either.

But it is important, I think, in any style of music, to be able to boil
a progression or melody down into its essential elements so that you can
recognize decoration for what it is.

--
Joey Goldstein
<a href="http://www.joeygoldstein.com" target="_blank">http://www.joeygoldstein.com</a>
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

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#28: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-07 13:11:29 by oasysco

&gt;&gt; Argghhh! Doesn't &lt;g&gt;
&gt;&gt; mean anything to you guys????

&gt; Your mother's a whore. &lt;g&gt;

You have got to be kidding me; you didn't write that, did you? My
respect-o-meter for you is running on empty, bud. And I'll bet I'm not
the only one here that feels the same way.

Greg

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#29: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-07 13:12:50 by oasysco

&gt; And yes,
&gt; I'd vote for Bush if he were to run again!

That's not funny.

Yeah, I shoulda put a grin mark on that one.

Greg

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#30: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-07 13:15:35 by oasysco

Ha-ha! Thanks, Tom.
Greg

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#31: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-07 13:25:48 by oasysco

Thanks, Tom. It wasn't so much as I didn't understand it as it was - 3
pages for 4 bars thing. I gotta a chuckle out of it, but not in a mean
way as JG took it. I'm also not saying I completely understood it, so I
appreciate your explanation.

In any case, that's the mystery of art - an artist creates and
generations of admirers make a living explaining it. I just thought it
&quot;funny&quot; that it takes so much in the written or spoken word to attempt
to explain a relatively brief aural experience, reminding me of that
saying, wirting about music is like dancing about architecture.

Greg

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#32: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-07 14:29:06 by oasysco

Rick and others,

Here's a synopsis of my recent guitar history for anybody who cares to
read it...

Quit playing altogether for 17 years due to family/life obligations...
took it back up in 1998'ish solely for the purpose of playing jazz.
Took jazz lessons by mail for a year from Mark Stefani of Vision Music
(I still work on that material to this day, thanks Mark!)... started
looking for jazz jam partners... had 2 jams... realized that 99% of
players (guitar, drums, bass, etc) who wanted to jam didn't, wouldn't,
and couldn't play jazz... back to jazz lessons with local jazz legend
and Mel-Bay author... hooked up with a fellow picker who said he wanted
to play jazz... morphed into a rock/blues bar band... took the
opportunity to get some gigging experience under my belt... hated
playing smoky bars and finally quit the band... planned on getting back
into jazz like I did when I started back playing... met up with 2 old
friends from the 70's/80's who wanted to gived it one last try on the
gigging circuit but with better venues, times, and pay... this is my
last shot and I'm doing it out of friendship... even so, prepp'ing to
get back to jazz simply for my own enjoyment and jams if I can find
anybody.

So, while some folks think I'm all about blues/rock/pop, they're only
partly right. First off, I don't listen to the music we play, but enjoy
playing it in a group ensemble. Unfortunately right now, jazz is a
hobby within the hobby of playing guitar due simply to time constraints
and the commitment I've made my two friends. When that commitment runs
its course, I'm back full-time (realtive to the time I have to put into
music) to jazz, jazz blues, and acoustic music.

That's why I hang here - because as a player, jazz is really the only
target I have had marked even back before I quit playing guitar in
1982. I was smitten with it in the 70's when I first started playing
guitar.

As for OT posts, much of what I post is gear-related, which no matter
your style, it's not terribly off mark, is it?

Greg

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#33: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-07 15:01:03 by KevinW

Joey Goldstein wrote:

&gt;
&gt; oasysco wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt;Argghhh! Doesn't &lt;g&gt;
&gt;&gt;mean anything to you guys????
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Your mother's a whore. &lt;g&gt;
&gt;


LOL! How many coffee-stained monitors am I going to have to replace
this year??


KevinW

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#34: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-07 16:07:53 by ottguit

Good post Greg,

I've found your gear posts here, and reviews on Harmony Central, and on
your Epiphone Joe Pass Site quite helpful and informative.

Big time thanks also for Gear info and reviews by Dave Stehens and Skip
Moy, as well.

I also than Joey G. for his theory posts that are very accurate &amp;
helpful, and I'm sure very time consuming and generous of him.
Bg

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#35: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-07 17:11:07 by Joey Goldstein

oasysco wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; Argghhh! Doesn't &lt;g&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; mean anything to you guys????
&gt;
&gt; &gt; Your mother's a whore. &lt;g&gt;
&gt;
&gt; You have got to be kidding me; you didn't write that, did you?

Sure did.

Just goes to demonstrate that what you write in front of &lt;g&gt; doesn't get
negated by the &lt;g&gt;.
&lt;g&gt; is not a license to say anything.

&gt; My
&gt; respect-o-meter for you is running on empty, bud.

Hey mac, I've never had much respect for you anyway.

&gt; And I'll bet I'm not
&gt; the only one here that feels the same way.

Probably not.


--
Joey Goldstein
<a href="http://www.joeygoldstein.com" target="_blank">http://www.joeygoldstein.com</a>
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

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#36: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-07 18:03:16 by ottguit

Oh Guys,

It really looks like things that can be said verbally &quot;Tongue in
Cheek&quot; or with a &quot;Nod and a Wink&quot; in Person, simply don't come off very
well on the net or in writing in general.

Let's get back to Real 'Tongue in Cheeker's' like Howard Roberts.
I always found some of the stuff he played scary as well as humorus.
Bg

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#37: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-07 18:11:15 by oasysco

&lt;in the interest of civility&gt;

It's pretty obvious that I've hurt your feelings. That was not my
intent and I'm sorry for that. Really, I am.

&gt; My respect-o-meter for you is running on empty, bud.

Joey, I have respect for you as a scholar of music . Granted some of
your responses to others here have been, let's say, less than gracious,
but that didn't diminish the respect I had for you as a scholar and
musician.

BTW, &quot;bud&quot; is used in the same way as &quot;man&quot;.

&gt;&gt;Hey mac, I've never had much respect for you anyway.

I've never asked for respect from you nor have I expected it. I mean,
why would I have? We don't correspond on the side. I don''t email you
up for advice. The same for you. This is USENET - the sistern of
opinions both useless and useful. Somebody doesn't fawn all over you
like some folks here in this thread have and you feel the need to
strike back. OK, I'm a big boy and can handle that. So strike away if
you must, but I won't say anything about your family no matter what you
say to me.

Greg

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#38: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-07 18:20:32 by KevinW

oasysco wrote:

Somebody doesn't fawn all over you
&gt; like some folks here in this thread have and you feel the need to
&gt; strike back. OK, I'm a big boy and can handle that. So strike away if
&gt; you must, but I won't say anything about your family no matter what you
&gt; say to me.
&gt;
&gt; Greg
&gt;

Oh, good lord, if saying thanks for an informative post is fawning, then
I really am screwed up.

Sorry I got involved in the first place.



KevinW

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#39: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-07 18:27:24 by Joey Goldstein

oasysco wrote:
&gt;
&gt; but I won't say anything about your family no matter what you
&gt; say to me.

Sheesh, doesn't &lt;g&gt; mean anything to you guys anymore?
&lt;g&gt;


--
Joey Goldstein
<a href="http://www.joeygoldstein.com" target="_blank">http://www.joeygoldstein.com</a>
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

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#40: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-07 18:41:27 by Joey Goldstein

oasysco wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &lt;in the interest of civility&gt;
&gt;
&gt; It's pretty obvious that I've hurt your feelings.

Not really Greg. I *really* don't care.

I said all I needed to say in my first reply to you. Here it is again:

&quot;If you don't enjoy thinking about these aspects of music then just don't
read my posts.&quot;

&gt; That was not my
&gt; intent and I'm sorry for that. Really, I am.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; My respect-o-meter for you is running on empty, bud.
&gt;
&gt; Joey, I have respect for you as a scholar of music .

I'm not a scholar of music.
I have 3.3 years of a diploma program at Berklee.
I have no degrees.
I have never studied any type of academic subject at the post-secondary level.
I'm just a goof who plays guitar.

&gt; Granted some of
&gt; your responses to others here have been, let's say, less than gracious,

I like to think I meet kind with kind.

&gt; but that didn't diminish the respect I had for you as a scholar and
&gt; musician.
&gt;
&gt; BTW, &quot;bud&quot; is used in the same way as &quot;man&quot;.
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;Hey mac, I've never had much respect for you anyway.
&gt;
&gt; I've never asked for respect from you nor have I expected it.

Nor have I from you. But *you* told me you were losing respect for me,
so I replied and told you about my own sentiments. What did you expect
me to do, chief?



--
Joey Goldstein
<a href="http://www.joeygoldstein.com" target="_blank">http://www.joeygoldstein.com</a>
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

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#41: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-07 18:49:28 by oasysco

I didn't mention you or anybody else. I said, &quot; like some folks&quot;, not
all. You have to read the posts for yourself to see if you think
anybody was fawning. It was my opinion that some folks were fawning,
sorta like, Greg said a bad thing about you Joey and he's an
idiot/imbecile/ignoramus/whatever for doing so because you are super
and I think the world of you - love u! That's fawning.

Greg

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#42: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-07 18:59:07 by oasysco

Ha! Got me, Joey! Golly, you sure are good with comebacks! And smart,
too! Did I mention how handsome your picture looks; I'll bet you get
all the girls. You can do on wrong and anytime you want to tell me how
much of a whore my mother is, you just go right ahead. I mean, it was
so funny that I called mom right away and read your post to her and she
just got tickled, let me tell you!!! She said, &quot;I'll bet he says that
to all the girls&quot;. Well, mom, I think mebbe yer right.

Greg

PS. To KevinW: FYI, this is an exaggerated example of fawning - well,
most of it anyway.

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#43: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-07 19:03:26 by oasysco

&gt;&gt; Your mother's a whore. &lt;g&gt;

&gt;LOL! How many coffee-stained monitors am I going to have to replace this year??

You're fawning, Kevin :)-

Greg

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#44: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-07 19:28:52 by oasysco

Good point. e-comms can never replace mano 'y mano dialog.

You know, I always enjoys Herb Ellis, Barney Kessel, and Charlie Byrd's
humor - both spoken and played - in those trio recordings they did.

Greg

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#45: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-07 20:01:59 by jeff29_b

oasysco wrote:
&gt; Thanks, Tom. It wasn't so much as I didn't understand it as it was - 3
&gt; pages for 4 bars thing. I gotta a chuckle out of it, but not in a mean
&gt; way as JG took it. I'm also not saying I completely understood it, so I
&gt; appreciate your explanation.
&gt;
&gt; In any case, that's the mystery of art - an artist creates and
&gt; generations of admirers make a living explaining it. I just thought it
&gt; &quot;funny&quot; that it takes so much in the written or spoken word to attempt
&gt; to explain a relatively brief aural experience, reminding me of that
&gt; saying, wirting about music is like dancing about architecture.
&gt;
&gt; Greg

There seems to be some attitude here, that if ones uses his or her
intellect when practicing or studying music or even performing music
that one isn't creating art or that they are a charlatan relying on
theory crutches, etc. Personally, I find that to be a limiting point
of view. I thirst for the knowledge of the components of jazz along
with an aural understanding of these elements.

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#46: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-07 20:05:35 by Patrick Hanrahan

&quot;Joey Goldstein&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nospam&#64;nowhere.net" target="_blank">nospam&#64;nowhere.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:42CC09B9.73A0E7AB&#64;nowhere.net..." target="_blank">42CC09B9.73A0E7AB&#64;nowhere.net...</a>
A little late to the party but....
Great post Joey! A few questions and observations.


What do you think of this chord progression? To me it as if some had to
harmonize a bass line [Bb C Db D ect.]

It seams kind of forced. May be if the 2nd chord was Cmin7, instead of
Fmin/C??.

Plus Dbmin6 to Bb7/D is ....I don't. This is what I came up with:

Db Fb Bb Db to D F Ab C. It's a bit stretchy but it seem to move to Ebmaj
better then any thing else I came up with.

&gt; Here's what a typical jazz harmonic analysis might look like:
&gt; Eb:
&gt; V7 IIm7 Vm7b5 V7 I VIm SubV7/V \IIm7___V7/IV IV
&gt; Bb7 / Fm7/C / |Dbm6 / Bb7 / |Eb / Cm Cb7 |Bbm7 / Eb7 |Ab
&gt; [What I've called Vm7b5 might also be labeled as #VIm6.]
Really? You don't hear a Modulation to Ab?

Eb:
I Vi7

Eb Cmin7 Cb7 Bbmin7 Eb7 Abmaj7

Ab:iii bIII7 ii7 V7 I

Just because of the way it sounds to me, and its placement in the form [2nd
4 bar phrase]

I not at all familiar with this tune, I looked for a lead sheet but can't
fine one. The guitar Guy has one but I can't make heads of tales of his
changes. Good for getting the lyrics thought. I hear 30 sec on Amazon web
site and kind of have a feeling of the style of the song, Frank in front of
Strings. It way to late in this thread but I'd love to see all the changes.

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#47: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-07 20:11:11 by Joey Goldstein

Oy.

oasysco wrote:
&gt;
&gt; Ha! Got me, Joey! Golly, you sure are good with comebacks! And smart,
&gt; too! Did I mention how handsome your picture looks; I'll bet you get
&gt; all the girls. You can do on wrong and anytime you want to tell me how
&gt; much of a whore my mother is, you just go right ahead. I mean, it was
&gt; so funny that I called mom right away and read your post to her and she
&gt; just got tickled, let me tell you!!! She said, &quot;I'll bet he says that
&gt; to all the girls&quot;. Well, mom, I think mebbe yer right.
&gt;
&gt; Greg
&gt;
&gt; PS. To KevinW: FYI, this is an exaggerated example of fawning - well,
&gt; most of it anyway.

--
Joey Goldstein
<a href="http://www.joeygoldstein.com" target="_blank">http://www.joeygoldstein.com</a>
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

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#48: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-07 20:33:18 by Joey Goldstein

Patrick Hanrahan wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &quot;Joey Goldstein&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nospam&#64;nowhere.net" target="_blank">nospam&#64;nowhere.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:<a href="mailto:42CC09B9.73A0E7AB&#64;nowhere.net..." target="_blank">42CC09B9.73A0E7AB&#64;nowhere.net...</a>
&gt; A little late to the party but....
&gt; Great post Joey! A few questions and observations.
&gt;
&gt; What do you think of this chord progression? To me it as if some had to
&gt; harmonize a bass line [Bb C Db D ect.]

It's pretty common. Usually it's C#dim7 or A7/C# rather than C#m6 though.

&gt; It seams kind of forced. May be if the 2nd chord was Cmin7, instead of
&gt; Fmin/C??.

That's another common variation. Ab/C (not much different than Fm7/C)
happens too.

&gt; Plus Dbmin6 to Bb7/D is ....I don't. This is what I came up with:
&gt;
&gt; Db Fb Bb Db to D F Ab C. It's a bit stretchy but it seem to move to Ebmaj
&gt; better then any thing else I came up with.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; Here's what a typical jazz harmonic analysis might look like:
&gt; &gt; Eb:
&gt; &gt; V7 IIm7 Vm7b5 V7 I VIm SubV7/V \IIm7___V7/IV IV
&gt; &gt; Bb7 / Fm7/C / |Dbm6 / Bb7 / |Eb / Cm Cb7 |Bbm7 / Eb7 |Ab
&gt; &gt; [What I've called Vm7b5 might also be labeled as #VIm6.]
&gt; Really? You don't hear a Modulation to Ab?

\IIm7__V7/IV means &quot;IIm7-V7 of IV&quot;. It's a secondary key feeling. The is
no primary modulation of key here because it does not stay in Ab for any
significant length of time.


--
Joey Goldstein
<a href="http://www.joeygoldstein.com" target="_blank">http://www.joeygoldstein.com</a>
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

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#49: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-07 20:47:29 by oasysco

&gt;There seems to be some attitude here, that if ones uses his or her
&gt;intellect when practicing or studying music or even performing music
&gt;that one isn't creating art or that they are a charlatan relying on
&gt;theory crutches, etc.

Dancing to architecture is diffult, but I suppose it can be done. There
has to have been interpretive dances about the building of
civilizations and cities, which is somewhat related.

We have already proven for centuries that the equally difficult task of
writing about music is do'able as well. To wit: countless writings on
Bach and other great composers; thousands of interpretive performances
of that type of music; thousands of careers built on it.

&gt; Personally, I find that to be a limiting point
&gt;of view.

Yeah, me too, but I still find the saying humorous.

&gt; I thirst for the knowledge of the components of jazz along
&gt;with an aural understanding of these elements.

Well, as a learned teacher once told me, theory is for discussing why
things work after the fact, but should not be used to make music.
Unfortunatelty at my level, I have to use what little theory I know to
help me play - at least for guidance.

Greg

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#50: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-07 22:54:51 by Patrick Hanrahan

&quot;Joey Goldstein&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nospam&#64;nowhere.net" target="_blank">nospam&#64;nowhere.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:42CD756F.7156291B&#64;nowhere.net..." target="_blank">42CD756F.7156291B&#64;nowhere.net...</a>


&gt; It's pretty common. Usually it's C#dim7 or A7/C# rather than C#m6 though.
Yea that's makes more sense to me. Better voice leading and something I
recognize.

C# G B E to D Ab Bb F to Eb Bb D G

Going by your 1st post Cmin7 to C#dim7 would be passing chords right?

&gt; That's another common variation. Ab/C (not much different than Fm7/C)
&gt; happens too.

Ab/C Yea Yea.. I like that... Sounds much better. Really cool with the 9:

C Ab Bb Eb
&gt;
&gt; \IIm7__V7/IV means &quot;IIm7-V7 of IV&quot;. It's a secondary key feeling. The is
&gt; no primary modulation of key here because it does not stay in Ab for any
&gt; significant length of time.

Right I understood the ii V of IV. I just assumed that the tune was going
to stay in Ab, at least for a little wile. This is why I wanted to see all
the changes. Maybe Rick will post them if I ask. Thanks.
&gt; Joey Goldstein
&gt; <a href="http://www.joeygoldstein.com" target="_blank">http://www.joeygoldstein.com</a>
&gt; joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

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#51: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-10 02:57:28 by sgcim

You do hear the Ab as the IV chord- same as the bridge of &quot;Isn't It
Romantic&quot;, &quot;My Romance&quot; etc...

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#52: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-10 03:20:02 by ediebur

&quot;If it's easier to think of them both as passing chords that's fine.
But
appoggiaturas and appoggiatura chords have a different feel to them,
IMO.

The Eb / Cm Cb7 |Bbm7
is similar in that there are a series of passing chords joining Eb to
Bbm7. &quot;

A few months ago I asked about the C major-Cdiminished-Cmaj in the
first phrase of &quot;If I Loved You&quot;. Matthew Fields and others
enlightened me about appoggiatura chords. This seems to be a more
elaborate example of the same thing. I understand what is going on, I
doubt my ability to write this way.

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#53: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-10 03:25:17 by Joey Goldstein

<a href="mailto:ediebur&#64;rcn.com" target="_blank">ediebur&#64;rcn.com</a> wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &quot;If it's easier to think of them both as passing chords that's fine.
&gt; But
&gt; appoggiaturas and appoggiatura chords have a different feel to them,
&gt; IMO.
&gt;
&gt; The Eb / Cm Cb7 |Bbm7
&gt; is similar in that there are a series of passing chords joining Eb to
&gt; Bbm7. &quot;
&gt;
&gt; A few months ago I asked about the C major-Cdiminished-Cmaj in the
&gt; first phrase of &quot;If I Loved You&quot;. Matthew Fields and others
&gt; enlightened me about appoggiatura chords. This seems to be a more
&gt; elaborate example of the same thing. I understand what is going on, I
&gt; doubt my ability to write this way.

Well, to me, a useful label would depend on the rhythm.

C / / / |Cdim / C / |
Cdim would be an appoggiatura chord in the above progression.

C / Cdim / |C / / / |
Cdim would be an auxiliary chord in the above progression.

--
Joey Goldstein
<a href="http://www.joeygoldstein.com" target="_blank">http://www.joeygoldstein.com</a>
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

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#54: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-10 03:56:10 by sgcim

I don't know if those passing chords were jazz subs or the ones the
song's composer intended, but one interesting thing that's helped me
understand the reason for many of the passing chords like that is that
the Broadway show thing evolved out of Operetta and most of the harmony
comes out of that tradition.

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#55: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-10 06:39:02 by Patrick Hanrahan

&lt;<a href="mailto:sgcim&#64;hotmail.com" target="_blank">sgcim&#64;hotmail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:1120957048.591630.267700&#64;g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1120957048.591630.267700&#64;g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt; You do hear the Ab as the IV chord- same as the bridge of &quot;Isn't It
&gt; Romantic&quot;, &quot;My Romance&quot; etc...
Funny you should mention &quot;Isn't it Romantic&quot;. Same chords and melody,
basically. I'm sure you knew that. Do you think Rodgers and Hart's being
rip off by Van Heusen? Or is it the other way around?
Well this is where it kind of gets tricky. I'm hearing a shift to the key
of Ab. I mean you not in Eb any more, right? It just a perception that
I've feel the IV chord as a new tonal center.
All the way
Abmaj7 Bb9 D-7b5 Gsus G7 C-7(B7BbEb7)
Eb: IV V ii/V V/iV iV
Abmaj7 Bb7 Bdim7 C-7 F9 Abmin6/Cb Bb7
IV V7 V/ii ii/V V/V iV V7
Not entirely sure that's right. The last 4 bar could be:
Abmaj7 Bb7 Bdim7 C-7 F9 Abmin6/Cb Bb7
IV V V/iV iV II7 iV V7
Although that pretty much the same thing.
IN Ab:
Abmaj7 Bb9 D-7b5 Gsus G7 C-7(B7BbEb7)
I II7 ii/V V/iii iii
Abmaj7 Bb7 Bdim7 C-7 F9 Abmin6/Cb Bb7
I II7 V/iii iii VI7
Eb: Vi II7 iV V7
That Abmin6/Cb Might be a B7b513 some kind of passing bVI7chord on it way
to V7. Regardless very cool chord and quite a dramatic effect.
To me, looking at it in Ab make more sense. I not sure Joey is entirely
wrong about it not having a clear Modulation or well defined cadence. What
do you think?

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#56: Re: the 2nd 8 bars of "All The Way"

Posted on 2005-07-10 23:27:03 by ediebur

Well, to me, a useful label would depend on the rhythm.

C / / / |Cdim / C / |
Cdim would be an appoggiatura chord in the above progression.

C / Cdim / |C / / / |
Cdim would be an auxiliary chord in the above progression.

I understand what you are saying but to me its splitting hairs. As I
said in my first post, I am interested in understanding what is going
on, but I can't imagine me writing this way. Richard Rogers had it in
his blood. I think Bali Hai has it too

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