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#1: Mystery of the Ibanez PM 20?

Posted on 2005-04-21 21:33:07 by pablorocharojas

Hi, I would appreciate if someone can tell me why this guitars were no
longer produced. I also dont understand why Pat Metheny is using this
instead of the Ibanez PM 100. Was it a good guitar, Where was it done?
Someone right here owns it? All info is well appreciated. Tahnk you.
Pablo From Mexico.

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#2: Re: Mystery of the Ibanez PM 20?

Posted on 2005-04-22 02:33:21 by oasysco

I can't say why the PM20 is no longer made. PM used his PM20 for awhile
except his had an ebony tailpiece. I heard that he thought it was
closer to a 175.

I thought he used the PM20 over the PM100 because he didn't like the
PM100. I think he's using the PM120 now, isn't he?

The PM20 was Korean-made; it's a fine guitar, too. I think severla of
us own it.

Check out my soon-to-be-but-not-yet published page on the PM20. No
matter whta the page leads you to believe, I do not have one to sell at
this time; maybe later but not now; I've got to get to know it better
:)-

<a href="http://members.cox.net/oasysco/pm20.htm" target="_blank">http://members.cox.net/oasysco/pm20.htm</a>

Greg

Greg

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#3: Re: Mystery of the Ibanez PM 20?

Posted on 2005-04-22 12:28:57 by Jack Zucker

pat never used a pm20. The guitar he uses occasionally looks like a pm20 but
is japanese and does not have the spliced neck or neckheel.

ibanez discontinued the pm20 and the korean gb10 because of market confusion
and cutting into sales of their high end instruments.

--
Experience a revolutionary way to approach the instrument.
Introducing Sheets of Sound for Guitar
&quot;Let the music govern the way you play guitar instead of the guitar
governing the way you play music!&quot;

Check it out at:
<a href="http://www.sheetsofsound.net" target="_blank">http://www.sheetsofsound.net</a>
&quot;oasysco&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:oasysco&#64;cox.net" target="_blank">oasysco&#64;cox.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:1114130001.655185.89200&#64;o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1114130001.655185.89200&#64;o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt;I can't say why the PM20 is no longer made. PM used his PM20 for awhile
&gt; except his had an ebony tailpiece. I heard that he thought it was
&gt; closer to a 175.
&gt;
&gt; I thought he used the PM20 over the PM100 because he didn't like the
&gt; PM100. I think he's using the PM120 now, isn't he?
&gt;
&gt; The PM20 was Korean-made; it's a fine guitar, too. I think severla of
&gt; us own it.
&gt;
&gt; Check out my soon-to-be-but-not-yet published page on the PM20. No
&gt; matter whta the page leads you to believe, I do not have one to sell at
&gt; this time; maybe later but not now; I've got to get to know it better
&gt; :)-
&gt;
&gt; <a href="http://members.cox.net/oasysco/pm20.htm" target="_blank">http://members.cox.net/oasysco/pm20.htm</a>
&gt;
&gt; Greg
&gt;
&gt; Greg
&gt;

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#4: Re: Mystery of the Ibanez PM 20?

Posted on 2005-04-22 15:26:09 by Jose Paulo Pires

oasysco wrote:

&gt; I thought he used the PM20 over the PM100 because he didn't like the
&gt; PM100. I think he's using the PM120 now, isn't he?

I have seen he using a PM prototype (looks like a PM20), and
a (black) PM100. (The PM100 has only the neck pickup too).
You can see he using the black PM100 on &quot;We live here&quot; and
&quot;Imaginary day&quot; videos, for example.
Both guitar are &quot;made in Japan&quot;.

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#5: Re: Mystery of the Ibanez PM 20?

Posted on 2005-04-22 15:28:34 by oasysco

On the topic of that scarf neck joint... I researched it and it is a
technique that requires a higher level of skill to make, is more
expensive, and is purportedly stronger than a solid neck. I wonder why
it's so frowned upon. I can't find anything negative about it,
considering more broken headstocks occurred from Gibbie's use of solid
necks than most any other neck construction.

If Pat's PM20-look-alike was MIJ, I assume it was a prototype and the
PM20 MIK was the production model, no?

Greg

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#6: Re: Mystery of the Ibanez PM 20?

Posted on 2005-04-22 19:47:09 by Greger Hoel

On 22 Apr 2005 06:28:34 -0700, &quot;oasysco&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:oasysco&#64;cox.net" target="_blank">oasysco&#64;cox.net</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;On the topic of that scarf neck joint... I researched it and it is a
&gt;technique that requires a higher level of skill to make, is more
&gt;expensive, and is purportedly stronger than a solid neck. I wonder why
&gt;it's so frowned upon. I can't find anything negative about it,
&gt;considering more broken headstocks occurred from Gibbie's use of solid
&gt;necks than most any other neck construction.

The appaling quality of Gibson neckjoints has more to do with the
angle of the grain *and* the placement of the trussrod head, than with
them being solid.
--
_______________________________________________
Always cross a vampire, never moon a werewolf

To reach me, swap spammers get bent with softhome
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------

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#7: Re: Mystery of the Ibanez PM 20?

Posted on 2005-04-22 21:28:34 by LarryV

Do you have some factual data to back up that statement? I've never
had a problem with Gibson neckjoints, nor have any of my friends. I'd
like to see the data that backs up your statement.

Cheers.

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#8: Re: Mystery of the Ibanez PM 20?

Posted on 2005-04-22 21:42:20 by Greger Hoel

On 22 Apr 2005 12:28:34 -0700, &quot;LarryV&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:larryv&#64;rcn.com" target="_blank">larryv&#64;rcn.com</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;Do you have some factual data to back up that statement? I've never
&gt;had a problem with Gibson neckjoints, nor have any of my friends. I'd
&gt;like to see the data that backs up your statement.

Shitloads upon shitloads of guitar necks are solid. Only the Gibson
way has neck snap problems. *Everytime* I visit a luthier I know, he's
got a Gibson there with a snapped headstock. He's never seen it with
any other brand.
--
_______________________________________________
Always cross a vampire, never moon a werewolf

To reach me, swap spammers get bent with softhome
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------

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#9: Re: Mystery of the Ibanez PM 20?

Posted on 2005-04-22 22:04:18 by LarryV

They don't snap on their own. It takes someone to drop the guitar or
whack it against an object to snap a neck joint. It really doesn't have
anything to do with the quality of the neck joint imho.

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#10: Re: Mystery of the Ibanez PM 20?

Posted on 2005-04-22 22:39:34 by LarryV

The other thing is that most Gibson necks are made of mahogany as
opposed to maple which is a much stronger wood. They have a fairly
sharp angle that's designed to increase sustain (17 degrees?). This
results in much greater tension on the headstock, so if you were to
drop the guitar or whack it hard against the wall or whatever, you
could indeed end up with a broken neck joint. However, it has nothing
to do with quality.

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#11: Re: Mystery of the Ibanez PM 20?

Posted on 2005-04-22 23:09:43 by acmost

&quot;LarryV&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:larryv&#64;rcn.com" target="_blank">larryv&#64;rcn.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:1114200258.889008.139530&#64;z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1114200258.889008.139530&#64;z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt; They don't snap on their own. It takes someone to drop the guitar or
&gt; whack it against an object to snap a neck joint. It really doesn't have
&gt; anything to do with the quality of the neck joint imho.
&gt;

I've snapped one on a les Paul...it was my fault - I still think it happens
to Gibson more than others.

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#12: Re: Mystery of the Ibanez PM 20?

Posted on 2005-04-23 06:33:04 by gerbalerer

Greger Hoel wrote:
&gt; On 22 Apr 2005 06:28:34 -0700, &quot;oasysco&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:oasysco&#64;cox.net" target="_blank">oasysco&#64;cox.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt;On the topic of that scarf neck joint... I researched it and it is a
&gt; &gt;technique that requires a higher level of skill to make, is more
&gt; &gt;expensive, and is purportedly stronger than a solid neck. I wonder
why
&gt; &gt;it's so frowned upon. I can't find anything negative about it,
&gt; &gt;considering more broken headstocks occurred from Gibbie's use of
solid
&gt; &gt;necks than most any other neck construction.
&gt;

laminating 2 (or more) peices of wood together creates a much stronger
structure than solid wood.

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#13: Re: Mystery of the Ibanez PM 20?

Posted on 2005-04-23 14:44:07 by Greger Hoel

On 22 Apr 2005 13:39:34 -0700, &quot;LarryV&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:larryv&#64;rcn.com" target="_blank">larryv&#64;rcn.com</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;The other thing is that most Gibson necks are made of mahogany as
&gt;opposed to maple which is a much stronger wood.

Yes, another structurally weaker design element.

&gt;They have a fairly
&gt;sharp angle that's designed to increase sustain (17 degrees?). This
&gt;results in much greater tension on the headstock, so if you were to
&gt;drop the guitar or whack it hard against the wall or whatever, you
&gt;could indeed end up with a broken neck joint.

Yes. The angle of the headstock *and* the angle of the wood grain both
makes it structurally weak. When you add the sizeable room for the
trussrod head, in the neck joint, it's really no mystery left as to
why they break so easily.

One structurally superior way is to cut off the neck diagonally, from
approximately the third fret on the fretboard side to the fourth fret
on the backside. Then you glue on a lower neck and headstock piece
that has the grain inline with with the alignment of the headstock.

--
_______________________________________________
Always cross a vampire, never moon a werewolf

To reach me, swap spammers get bent with softhome
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------

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#14: Re: Mystery of the Ibanez PM 20?

Posted on 2005-04-23 14:51:36 by Greger Hoel

On 22 Apr 2005 13:04:18 -0700, &quot;LarryV&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:larryv&#64;rcn.com" target="_blank">larryv&#64;rcn.com</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;They don't snap on their own. It takes someone to drop the guitar or
&gt;whack it against an object to snap a neck joint. It really doesn't have
&gt;anything to do with the quality of the neck joint imho.

?
What does the word &quot;quality&quot; mean to you anyway? Of course the
neckjoint has to be stressed for it to snap. How the hell can you
think &quot;it really doesn't have anything to do with the quality of the
neck joint,&quot; when a Gibson headstock joint snaps so many times over
more easily than *any other fucking guitar brand*? If the design is so
piss poor that you have to expect a necksnap if your flightcase
topples over just once, THE NECK IS OF INFERIOR QUALITY!
--
_______________________________________________
Always cross a vampire, never moon a werewolf

To reach me, swap spammers get bent with softhome
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------

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#15: Re: Mystery of the Ibanez PM 20?

Posted on 2005-04-23 15:00:46 by oasysco

Wait a minute, that's so close to what a scarf joint is, which is my
point - makes a stronger neck.

Greg

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#16: Re: Mystery of the Ibanez PM 20?

Posted on 2005-04-23 15:40:39 by LarryV

Show me the statistics that prove this happens more to Gibsons than any
other guitar? Could be the case since there's a lot more Gibsons
around than a lot of other guitars. The quality of my Gibsons has been
excellent, and if I were to break the headstock by some accident, I
certainly would not be blaming Gibson for producing a poor quality
instrument, it's a ludicrous assumption.

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#17: Re: Mystery of the Ibanez PM 20?

Posted on 2005-04-23 16:22:31 by unknown

Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)

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#18: Re: Mystery of the Ibanez PM 20?

Posted on 2005-04-23 17:20:36 by Greger Hoel

On 23 Apr 2005 06:40:39 -0700, &quot;LarryV&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:larryv&#64;rcn.com" target="_blank">larryv&#64;rcn.com</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;Show me the statistics that prove this happens more to Gibsons than any
&gt;other guitar?

Huh? When did anybody ever make scientific studies on the various of
guitar brands' qualities? The empirics of it all are clear.

<a href="http://www.dritfetegitarer.com/" target="_blank">http://www.dritfetegitarer.com/</a> ..is an online second hand guitar
shop. One time when I browsed through it, I noticed that all their
Gibsons but one, had suffered a necksnap.

&gt;Could be the case since there's a lot more Gibsons
&gt;around than a lot of other guitars.

Since you're such a stickler for statistics, and since I explained
more than once that I compared Gibson's output to the sum of outputs
of all other brands, I expect you got statistics that back up that
&quot;there's a lot more Gibsons around&quot; than there are other guitars
around.

&gt;The quality of my Gibsons has been
&gt;excellent,

Have any of them been dropped or ever toppled over, or even jsut
suffered a fast tap against the back of the headstock? If not, you
don't know if their quality has been excellent.

&gt;and if I were to break the headstock by some accident, I
&gt;certainly would not be blaming Gibson for producing a poor quality
&gt;instrument, it's a ludicrous assumption.

You must be the picture perfect ideal customer for any inferior
product.
--
_______________________________________________
Always cross a vampire, never moon a werewolf

To reach me, swap spammers get bent with softhome
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------

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#19: Re: Mystery of the Ibanez PM 20?

Posted on 2005-04-23 17:21:03 by Greger Hoel

On 23 Apr 2005 06:00:46 -0700, &quot;oasysco&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:oasysco&#64;cox.net" target="_blank">oasysco&#64;cox.net</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;Wait a minute, that's so close to what a scarf joint is, which is my
&gt;point - makes a stronger neck.

Right on. Scarf joint's the name.
--
_______________________________________________
Always cross a vampire, never moon a werewolf

To reach me, swap spammers get bent with softhome
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------

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#20: Re: Mystery of the Ibanez PM 20?

Posted on 2005-04-24 03:27:01 by pataud

Greger Hoel wrote:

&gt; On 23 Apr 2005 06:00:46 -0700, &quot;oasysco&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:oasysco&#64;cox.net" target="_blank">oasysco&#64;cox.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;Wait a minute, that's so close to what a scarf joint is, which is my
&gt;&gt;point - makes a stronger neck.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Right on. Scarf joint's the name.

Depends what kind of scarf joint.

The ones that butt the end grain of the neck with the side of the grain
of the headstocks are very strong. Like this:
<a href="http://www.granataguitars.com/tour3.htm" target="_blank">http://www.granataguitars.com/tour3.htm</a>
(not my page)

The ones with that scarf in the middle of the neck, join end grain to
end grain, and are a little bit more sketchy (end grains having less
surface area). Like so:
<a href="http://www.vintagekramer.com/headstocks/luthjoint.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.vintagekramer.com/headstocks/luthjoint.jpg</a>
(again, not my page)

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#21: Re: Mystery of the Ibanez PM 20?

Posted on 2005-04-25 14:39:58 by Tom Walls

In article &lt;VDdae.92141$f%<a href="mailto:4.80150&#64;bignews1.bellsouth.net" target="_blank">4.80150&#64;bignews1.bellsouth.net</a>&gt;,
<a href="mailto:acmost&#64;bellsouth.not" target="_blank">acmost&#64;bellsouth.not</a> says...
&gt;
&gt; &quot;LarryV&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:larryv&#64;rcn.com" target="_blank">larryv&#64;rcn.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:<a href="mailto:1114200258.889008.139530&#64;z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1114200258.889008.139530&#64;z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt; &gt; They don't snap on their own. It takes someone to drop the guitar or
&gt; &gt; whack it against an object to snap a neck joint. It really doesn't have
&gt; &gt; anything to do with the quality of the neck joint imho.
&gt; &gt;
&gt;
&gt; I've snapped one on a les Paul...it was my fault - I still think it happens
&gt; to Gibson more than others.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
I just talked to someone yesterday who'd been looking at a couple of 70s
Les Pauls and both of them had repaired headstocks. He asked me if
Gibsons had a problem with this. The annecdotal evidence is pretty
great.
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus

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#22: Re: Mystery of the Ibanez PM 20?

Posted on 2005-04-25 19:05:16 by Paul Sanwald

to me, there's a direct correlation between quality and not having the
neck snap off.

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#23: Re: Mystery of the Ibanez PM 20?

Posted on 2005-04-25 20:03:34 by hepkatreetaroonie

On 25 Apr 2005 10:05:16 -0700, &quot;paul&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:pcsanwald&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">pcsanwald&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;to me, there's a direct correlation between quality and not having the
&gt;neck snap off.

Picky. Picky.







-------------------------------------------------------
Is it not strange that sheep's guts should hale
souls out of men's bodies?
Willie 'The Lion' Shakespeare
-------------------------------------------------------

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#24: Re: Mystery of the Ibanez PM 20?

Posted on 2005-04-25 20:30:28 by Tom Walls

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:426d30eb.268911344&#64;News.sprint.ca" target="_blank">426d30eb.268911344&#64;News.sprint.ca</a>&gt;,
<a href="mailto:hepkatreetaroonie&#64;hotmail.com" target="_blank">hepkatreetaroonie&#64;hotmail.com</a> says...
&gt; On 25 Apr 2005 10:05:16 -0700, &quot;paul&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:pcsanwald&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">pcsanwald&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt;to me, there's a direct correlation between quality and not having the
&gt; &gt;neck snap off.
&gt;
&gt; Picky. Picky.
&gt;
&gt;
Mister Fussbudget.

--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus

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#25: Re: Mystery of the Ibanez PM 20?

Posted on 2005-04-25 20:40:26 by hepkatreetaroonie

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 14:30:28 -0400, Tom Walls &lt;<a href="mailto:tw25&#64;cornell.edu" target="_blank">tw25&#64;cornell.edu</a>&gt;
wrote:

&gt;In article &lt;<a href="mailto:426d30eb.268911344&#64;News.sprint.ca" target="_blank">426d30eb.268911344&#64;News.sprint.ca</a>&gt;,
&gt;<a href="mailto:hepkatreetaroonie&#64;hotmail.com" target="_blank">hepkatreetaroonie&#64;hotmail.com</a> says...
&gt;&gt; On 25 Apr 2005 10:05:16 -0700, &quot;paul&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:pcsanwald&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">pcsanwald&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;to me, there's a direct correlation between quality and not having the
&gt;&gt; &gt;neck snap off.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Picky. Picky.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;Mister Fussbudget.
&gt;

There's just no pleasing _some_ people. Tsk!










-------------------------------------------------------
Is it not strange that sheep's guts should hale
souls out of men's bodies?
Willie 'The Lion' Shakespeare
-------------------------------------------------------

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#26: Re: Mystery of the Ibanez PM 20?

Posted on 2005-04-25 21:23:08 by oasysco

You know, I had a bandmate who played a LE DC Standard sometimes and he
used to have great fun doing a bend by holding the headstock and
forcibly bending the neck from behind. I used to cringe when he did it;
I always envisioned the headstock snapping off, but it never did.

Greg

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#27: Re: Mystery of the Ibanez PM 20?

Posted on 2005-04-26 03:51:42 by oasysco

I'll be posting a review of the PM20 on RRMGJ soon, Pablo.

Greg

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#28: Re: Mystery of the Ibanez PM 20?

Posted on 2005-04-26 14:11:54 by acmost

&quot;LarryV&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:larryv&#64;rcn.com" target="_blank">larryv&#64;rcn.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:1114263639.786511.269530&#64;f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1114263639.786511.269530&#64;f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt; Show me the statistics that prove this happens more to Gibsons than any
&gt; other guitar?

I heard it on the internet.

other than that...it's true.

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#29: Re: Mystery of the Ibanez PM 20?

Posted on 2005-04-26 15:38:56 by papaof22001

Why? It's not like you can get them anymore.

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#30: Re: Mystery of the Ibanez PM 20?

Posted on 2005-04-27 20:50:45 by oasysco

True. No review then.

Greg

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