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#1: Bebop Scale Fingerings

Posted on 2005-02-03 23:27:00 by Dan Adler

I've been working a lot with Bergonzi's books lately, and the one that
is turning out to be pretty challenging is Vol 3: The Jazz Line, which
is essentially bebop scales raised to the Nth degree.

On major, dorian and mm he adds the 6b between the 5th and 6th. The
problem is that in most standard fingerings (e.g. the E grip of CAGED),
the extra note sits on an extended finger out of position. I don't like
the way that sounds. It results in choppy articulation because you have
to skip a string. This has caused me to come up with some new
fingerings to achieve the sound I want to hear. Curious if anyone else
has tackled this.

-Dan
<a href="http://danadler.com" target="_blank">http://danadler.com</a>

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#2: Re: Bebop Scale Fingerings

Posted on 2005-02-03 23:34:11 by ken

Dan Adler wrote:

&gt; On major, dorian and mm he adds the 6b between the 5th and 6th. The
&gt; problem is that in most standard fingerings (e.g. the E grip of
CAGED),
&gt; the extra note sits on an extended finger out of position. I don't
like
&gt; the way that sounds. It results in choppy articulation because you
have
&gt; to skip a string. This has caused me to come up with some new
&gt; fingerings to achieve the sound I want to hear. Curious if anyone
else
&gt; has tackled this.

Yeah, I had a hard time initially, but now for beboppy runs, I tend to
slide or slur into the 5 from the b6 anyway, so it works out perfectly
no matter where I play it.

So sometimes I have to shift a half-step up (to grab the b6) and then
slide back down to the 5 and I'm back at my original position.

I sort of love that sound...

Ken

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#3: Re: Bebop Scale Fingerings

Posted on 2005-02-04 00:07:56 by Gerry

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:1107469620.454735.24830&#64;c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1107469620.454735.24830&#64;c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;, Dan
Adler &lt;<a href="mailto:dan&#64;danadler.com" target="_blank">dan&#64;danadler.com</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt; I've been working a lot with Bergonzi's books lately, and the one that
&gt; is turning out to be pretty challenging is Vol 3: The Jazz Line, which
&gt; is essentially bebop scales raised to the Nth degree.
&gt;
&gt; On major, dorian and mm he adds the 6b between the 5th and 6th. The
&gt; problem is that in most standard fingerings (e.g. the E grip of CAGED),
&gt; the extra note sits on an extended finger out of position. I don't like
&gt; the way that sounds. It results in choppy articulation because you have
&gt; to skip a string. This has caused me to come up with some new
&gt; fingerings to achieve the sound I want to hear. Curious if anyone else
&gt; has tackled this.

My approach is to avoid being to rigid at applying the CAGED system.
Certainly it's a reference point but then it provides just the
difficulties in articulation that you're speaking of. there is a
position (learned via Leavitt) which, for the key of G, sits at the 4th
fret, the first finger extended to cover both the 3rd and and 4th.
This might approximate the area I'd use if really working that area
between 5 and 6.

--
Every man takes the limits of his own field of vision for the limits of the
world. -- Arthur Schopenhauer

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#4: Re: Bebop Scale Fingerings

Posted on 2005-02-04 12:25:30 by geekguitar

Yes Dan,
I had some similar issues with a few 8 note bebop scales (IE:minor
6th -- the major scale with a b3 and the addition of a #5, and the
Dominant 7th Bebop which is a moxolydian with b2, b6 and addition of a
natural 7). I adhere to the CAGED approach fairly strongly as a clear
way of creating 5 fingerings per scale. But some of the fingerings for
the 8 note scales require a little stretch out of position. I got used
to them though and they're not a problem now.

--Eric Elias
www.ericelias.net
www.funkyfolkmusic.com

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#5: Re: Bebop Scale Fingerings

Posted on 2005-02-04 12:46:08 by Dan Adler

&gt; So sometimes I have to shift a half-step up (to grab the b6) and
&gt; then slide back down to the 5 and I'm back at my original position.

That makes it non-symmetrical, which is what I want to avoid. I want to
slide from b6 to 6 going up and from b6 to 5 going down in the same
position over 2 octaves in multiple positions. Lets see you solve that
one :-)

-Dan
<a href="http://danadler.com" target="_blank">http://danadler.com</a>

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#6: Re: Bebop Scale Fingerings

Posted on 2005-02-04 15:59:11 by ken

Dan Adler wrote:
&gt; &gt; So sometimes I have to shift a half-step up (to grab the b6) and
&gt; &gt; then slide back down to the 5 and I'm back at my original position.
&gt;
&gt; That makes it non-symmetrical, which is what I want to avoid. I want
to
&gt; slide from b6 to 6 going up and from b6 to 5 going down in the same
&gt; position over 2 octaves in multiple positions. Lets see you solve
that
&gt; one :-)

Why do you want to avoid it? It sounds great non-symmetrically.

I don't care about that stuff anymore (adhering to anything). I just
want the stuff I play to sound good. If it sounds good
non-symmetrically, so be it!

I sort of think it's important to have that flexibility, and to let the
sounds dictate what your hands/fingers do and not the other way around.


Ken

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#7: Re: Bebop Scale Fingerings

Posted on 2005-02-04 16:56:45 by Tom Walls

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:1107529151.077008.11940&#64;g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1107529151.077008.11940&#64;g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;,
<a href="mailto:kuboken1&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">kuboken1&#64;yahoo.com</a> says...
&gt;
&gt; Dan Adler wrote:
&gt; &gt; &gt; So sometimes I have to shift a half-step up (to grab the b6) and
&gt; &gt; &gt; then slide back down to the 5 and I'm back at my original position.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; That makes it non-symmetrical, which is what I want to avoid. I want
&gt; to
&gt; &gt; slide from b6 to 6 going up and from b6 to 5 going down in the same
&gt; &gt; position over 2 octaves in multiple positions. Lets see you solve
&gt; that
&gt; &gt; one :-)
&gt;
&gt; Why do you want to avoid it? It sounds great non-symmetrically.
&gt;
&gt; I don't care about that stuff anymore (adhering to anything). I just
&gt; want the stuff I play to sound good. If it sounds good
&gt; non-symmetrically, so be it!
&gt;
&gt; I sort of think it's important to have that flexibility, and to let the
&gt; sounds dictate what your hands/fingers do and not the other way around.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Ken
&gt;
&gt;
What means &quot;symmetrical&quot; fingering?
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus

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#8: Re: Bebop Scale Fingerings

Posted on 2005-02-04 17:13:29 by Paul Sanwald

Dan Adler wrote:

&gt; slide from b6 to 6 going up and from b6 to 5 going down in the same
&gt; position over 2 octaves in multiple positions.

the 2 octaves is what makes it difficult, otherwise it's easy to do in
most positions. why not move up the neck for the second octave?

--paul

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#9: Re: Bebop Scale Fingerings

Posted on 2005-02-04 17:34:35 by Dan Adler

&gt; Why do you want to avoid it? It sounds great non-symmetrically.

Not to my ears...

-Dan
<a href="http://danadler.com" target="_blank">http://danadler.com</a>

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#10: Re: Bebop Scale Fingerings

Posted on 2005-02-04 17:37:39 by ken

Really? What part of non-symmetrical doesn't sound good? When
soloing, do you really ever go up and down a bebop scale in 2 octaves
like that back-to-back?

Ken

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#11: Re: Bebop Scale Fingerings

Posted on 2005-02-04 17:54:26 by markr

Dan Adler wrote:
&gt; I've been working a lot with Bergonzi's books lately, and the one
that
&gt; is turning out to be pretty challenging is Vol 3: The Jazz Line,
which
&gt; is essentially bebop scales raised to the Nth degree.
&gt;
&gt; On major, dorian and mm he adds the 6b between the 5th and 6th. The
&gt; problem is that in most standard fingerings (e.g. the E grip of
CAGED),
&gt; the extra note sits on an extended finger out of position. I don't
like
&gt; the way that sounds. It results in choppy articulation because you
have
&gt; to skip a string. This has caused me to come up with some new
&gt; fingerings to achieve the sound I want to hear. Curious if anyone
else
&gt; has tackled this.
&gt;
&gt; -Dan
&gt; <a href="http://danadler.com" target="_blank">http://danadler.com</a>
=======================
Roni Ben Hur gets into this in some detail in the Talk Jazz Book

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#12: Re: Bebop Scale Fingerings

Posted on 2005-02-04 18:35:58 by Dan Adler

Try to do the exercises in Bergonzi vol 3 similar to how he does them
on the demonstration tracks and this will become clear.

-Dan
<a href="http://danadler.com" target="_blank">http://danadler.com</a>

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#13: Re: Bebop Scale Fingerings

Posted on 2005-02-04 18:40:04 by Pt

On 3 Feb 2005 14:27:00 -0800, &quot;Dan Adler&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:dan&#64;danadler.com" target="_blank">dan&#64;danadler.com</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;I've been working a lot with Bergonzi's books lately, and the one that
&gt;is turning out to be pretty challenging is Vol 3: The Jazz Line, which
&gt;is essentially bebop scales raised to the Nth degree.
&gt;
&gt;On major, dorian and mm he adds the 6b between the 5th and 6th. The
&gt;problem is that in most standard fingerings (e.g. the E grip of CAGED),
&gt;the extra note sits on an extended finger out of position. I don't like
&gt;the way that sounds. It results in choppy articulation because you have
&gt;to skip a string. This has caused me to come up with some new
&gt;fingerings to achieve the sound I want to hear. Curious if anyone else
&gt;has tackled this.
&gt;
&gt;-Dan
&gt;<a href="http://danadler.com" target="_blank">http://danadler.com</a>


This may be a bit off the wall.
But what do you expect out of me?
I spent a lot of years working on theory.
When I played I thought theory with every note or chord.
Now that's a lot of work.
These days I can't think that fast.
So I put more efforts in to my ear training and learned to play what I
heard without putting a lot of thought in to it.
I was more interested in getting the sound I wanted than the technical
aspects.
Music theory is indeed important when writing music or transcribing
but I think it takes away from your ability to create.

Pt

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#14: Re: Bebop Scale Fingerings

Posted on 2005-02-04 18:56:42 by Joey Goldstein

Dan Adler wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt; So sometimes I have to shift a half-step up (to grab the b6) and
&gt; &gt; then slide back down to the 5 and I'm back at my original position.
&gt;
&gt; That makes it non-symmetrical, which is what I want to avoid. I want to
&gt; slide from b6 to 6 going up and from b6 to 5 going down in the same
&gt; position over 2 octaves in multiple positions. Lets see you solve that
&gt; one :-)
&gt;
&gt; -Dan
&gt; <a href="http://danadler.com" target="_blank">http://danadler.com</a>

Haven't been following this tread really but...
If all you want to do is run the scale up and down, as opposed to making
melodies from the scale tones, then what's wrong with plain old position
playing ala Leavitt?

C6 bebop, Pos II
C D E F G G# A B C D E F G G# A
2 4 1 2 4 1 1 3 4 2 4 1 2 3 4

A Ab G F E D C B A Ab G F E D C
4 3 2 1 4 2 4 3 1 4 4 2 1 4 1

C6 bebop, Pos III
C D E F G G# A B C D E F G G# A
1 3 1 1 3 4 1 2 3 1 3 4 1 2 3

A Ab G F E D C B A Ab G F E D C
3 2 1 4 3 1 3 2 1 4 3 1 1 3 1

C6 bebop, Pos IV
C D E F G G# A B C D E F G G# A
1 2 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 2 3 1 1 2

A Ab G F E D C B A Ab G F E D C
2 1 1/4 3 2 4 2 1 4 3 2 1 4 2 1

Etc.
I.e. Just like any other scale, arpeggio, or melody, there are 12
possible position fingerings. Many of them are clumsy in some way
(either physically or conceptually) but they all have their uses.

As far as &quot;symmetry&quot; is concerned I don't think I really know any
fingerings for non-symmetrical scales that are really all that symmetrical.

If what you are trying to do is avoid the clumsiness of many of the
position fingerings then you might consider fingerings in which position
shifts are used to alleviate that clumsiness. Usually this will involve
shifting position instead of doing a finger stretch.

Pos II I II III
C D E F G G# A B C D E F G G# A
2 4 1 2 4 1 2 4 4 1 3 4 1 2 3

III II III II
A Ab G F E D C B A Ab G F E D C
3 2 1 4 3 1 4 3 1 4 3 1 1 4 2

or

II IV III
C D E F G G# A B C D E F G G# A
2 4 1 2 2 3 4 1 2 1 3 4 1 2 3

III IV II
A Ab G F E D C B A Ab G F E D C
3 2 1 4 2 1 2 1 4 3 2 2 1 4 1

Etc., etc.

Of course the LH fingering will also affect what the RH has to do,
especially if you like picking every note.

Now, making a melody up with this scale and finding a good fingering for
that melody will involve the specifics of the melody. This is true with
all melodies on the guitar and probably on all instruments. Stock scale
fingerings are important and nice to know but a melody is not a scale
and usually possesses little of the same predictability. Eg. Trying to
play Confirmation with a &quot;symmetrical&quot; fingering wouldn't make sense,
would it?

--
Joey Goldstein
<a href="http://www.joeygoldstein.com" target="_blank">http://www.joeygoldstein.com</a>
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

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#15: Re: Bebop Scale Fingerings

Posted on 2005-02-04 19:15:19 by pmfan57

Dan Adler wrote:
&gt; I've been working a lot with Bergonzi's books lately, and the one
that
&gt; is turning out to be pretty challenging is Vol 3: The Jazz Line,
which
&gt; is essentially bebop scales raised to the Nth degree.
&gt;
&gt; On major, dorian and mm he adds the 6b between the 5th and 6th. The
&gt; problem is that in most standard fingerings (e.g. the E grip of
CAGED),
&gt; the extra note sits on an extended finger out of position. I don't
like
&gt; the way that sounds. It results in choppy articulation because you
have
&gt; to skip a string. This has caused me to come up with some new
&gt; fingerings to achieve the sound I want to hear. Curious if anyone
else
&gt; has tackled this.
&gt;
&gt; -Dan
&gt; <a href="http://danadler.com" target="_blank">http://danadler.com</a>

The E grip is ok on the second string for descending major bebop. But
I agree it's annoying on the transition between the fourth and fifth
strings descending. I usually just do a Pat Martino index finger slide
down on the fourth string (from the sixth chromatically to the fifth)
to the lower grip (&quot;G cowboy&quot;) because I have gotten used to that move
from my years trying to play like Pat!

For Dominant (Mixo) David Baker adds the note between the root and b7
descending but also says if you start on the 13th/6th, descend
chromatically to the fifth, so I guess it's the same thing. In
Bergonzi's system, does he add the b6 in a descending Dominant scale as
well as the half step between the root and the b7? That scale would
not have a chord tone on every strong beat.

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#16: Re: Bebop Scale Fingerings

Posted on 2005-02-04 19:21:51 by ken

I don't own it, so...

But I believe you. Obviously you are digging into this far more
deeper than I did...

I don't practice scales going up and down like that anymore (but I did
do the Leavitt stuff that Joey mentions).

Everything I do now is based on trying to work out ways to be able to
phrase what I hear...

Ken

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#17: Re: Bebop Scale Fingerings

Posted on 2005-02-04 19:43:32 by Tom Walls

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:4203B75A.1A16CB41&#64;nowhere.net" target="_blank">4203B75A.1A16CB41&#64;nowhere.net</a>&gt;, <a href="mailto:nospam&#64;nowhere.net" target="_blank">nospam&#64;nowhere.net</a> says...
&gt;
&gt; As far as &quot;symmetry&quot; is concerned I don't think I really know any
&gt; fingerings for non-symmetrical scales that are really all that symmetrical.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
Ah Joey, maybe you'll tell me what is meant by symmetrical fingering.
Like 1,2,4 - 1,2,4 - 2,4? Or something else entirely?
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus

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#18: Re: Bebop Scale Fingerings

Posted on 2005-02-04 19:45:54 by Joey Goldstein

Tom Walls wrote:
&gt;
&gt; In article &lt;<a href="mailto:4203B75A.1A16CB41&#64;nowhere.net" target="_blank">4203B75A.1A16CB41&#64;nowhere.net</a>&gt;, <a href="mailto:nospam&#64;nowhere.net" target="_blank">nospam&#64;nowhere.net</a> says...
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; As far as &quot;symmetry&quot; is concerned I don't think I really know any
&gt; &gt; fingerings for non-symmetrical scales that are really all that symmetrical.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; Ah Joey, maybe you'll tell me what is meant by symmetrical fingering.
&gt; Like 1,2,4 - 1,2,4 - 2,4?

That's what I figure it means too.

&gt; Or something else entirely?
&gt; --
&gt; Tom Walls
&gt; the guy at the Temple of Zeus


--
Joey Goldstein
<a href="http://www.joeygoldstein.com" target="_blank">http://www.joeygoldstein.com</a>
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

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#19: Re: Bebop Scale Fingerings

Posted on 2005-02-04 22:57:31 by Joey Goldstein

Dan Adler wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt; So sometimes I have to shift a half-step up (to grab the b6) and
&gt; &gt; then slide back down to the 5 and I'm back at my original position.
&gt;
&gt; That makes it non-symmetrical, which is what I want to avoid. I want to
&gt; slide from b6 to 6 going up and from b6 to 5 going down in the same
&gt; position over 2 octaves

C6 bebop in Pos VII does exactly what you have described, at least in
the lower octave it does.:

C D E F G G# A B C D E F G G# A B C
2 4 1 2 4 1 1 3 4 1 3 4 2 3 4 1 2

C B A Ab G F E D C B A Ab G F E D C
2 1 4 3 2 4 3 1 4 3 1 4 4 2 1 4 2

If what you are trying to do is to keep some sort of sameness between
the fingering in the upper octave with the lower then try this:

VII IX XII
C D E F G G# A B C D E F G G# A B C
2 4 1 2 4 1 1 3 2 4 1 2 4 1 1 3 2

XII IX
C B A Ab G F E D C B A Ab G F E D C
2 3 1 4 4 2 1 4 2 3 1 4 4 2 1 4 2

But, while that symmetry might be nice conceptually speaking, physically
it's a bit confusing.

&gt; in multiple positions.

If you are trying to cover 2 octaves more or less within the same area
of the fretboard then you are going to have to start on your 6th string
and go up to the 1st string and back. This doesn't allow for all that
many fingerings. You'll be lucky to find one that fits the criteria you
have given yourself.

&gt; Lets see you solve that
&gt; one :-)
&gt;
&gt; -Dan
&gt; <a href="http://danadler.com" target="_blank">http://danadler.com</a>


--
Joey Goldstein
<a href="http://www.joeygoldstein.com" target="_blank">http://www.joeygoldstein.com</a>
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

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#20: Re: Bebop Scale Fingerings

Posted on 2005-02-05 10:24:27 by jazzychris

Uzytkownik &quot;ken&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:kuboken1&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">kuboken1&#64;yahoo.com</a>&gt; napisal w wiadomosci
news:<a href="mailto:1107541311.553566.8130&#64;f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1107541311.553566.8130&#64;f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...</a>

&gt; Everything I do now is based on trying to work out ways to be able to
&gt; phrase what I hear...

And what is it? What do you do to achieve that goal? I ask because I like
your point of view (about &quot;playing-what-you-hear&quot;).


--
jazzy [Krzysiek Inglik]
<a href="http://GuitarZone.org" target="_blank">http://GuitarZone.org</a>
GG # 7101960

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#21: Re: Bebop Scale Fingerings

Posted on 2005-02-05 15:23:51 by ken

jazzy wrote:
&gt; Uzytkownik &quot;ken&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:kuboken1&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">kuboken1&#64;yahoo.com</a>&gt; napisal w wiadomosci
&gt; news:<a href="mailto:1107541311.553566.8130&#64;f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1107541311.553566.8130&#64;f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt;
&gt; &gt; Everything I do now is based on trying to work out ways to be able
to
&gt; &gt; phrase what I hear...
&gt;
&gt; And what is it? What do you do to achieve that goal? I ask because I
like
&gt; your point of view (about &quot;playing-what-you-hear&quot;).

Well, that sounds better than it really is... What I mean is I
practice playing everything BUT scale and arps. I still do a little
bit just to get something new under my fingers.

But most of the time, I will work on phrases, scale fragments, or
playing phrases based on scales played in fourths or in triads or
whatever.

Or if I want to achieve a certain feel, like Scofield's sound, or
Bird's swing feel, then I'll focus on picking/fingering to acheive
those kinds of sounds.

I don't just blindly try to figure out a gazillion iterations and be
able to play everything everywhere too much (even though that's still a
great exercise for fretboard knowledge).

I just practice what I am more likely to play in a real life situation.


That's all I mean.

Ken

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#22: Re: Bebop Scale Fingerings

Posted on 2005-02-05 23:42:08 by Dan Adler

&gt; Everything I do now is based on trying to work out ways to be able to
&gt; phrase what I hear...

That's one of those things that sounds like a good goal but actually is
misleading. If that were the only worthy goal then all singers would
scat perfectly. The truth is if you want to sound a certain way you
have to get some sounds into your hands and ears, and the two processes
are intertwined in ways we don't really understand. Being able to start
a scale or arp (bebop or not) from each degree of the chord on a fast
standard with lots of changes as the chords are flying by is something
everyone should master. If you happen to be able to already sing it and
then play it, then that's one way to achieve it, but for most of us it
works hand in hand. You learn to hear it as you learn to play it.

Reno gave a good example a while back. Put on a backing track for a
really hard standard and sing a great solo that you really wish you
could play if you could really play anything you sing. Chances are,
what will come out will be less than great for most people - so
obviously it's not worth playing. Or, you will have some great rhythmic
ideas, but the pitches will not come out precise enough to really play.

The actual process that happens is a lot more complex and involves some
thinking as well as hearing. Some ideas come to you as mental ideas and
you execute them, and then other are licks or scale fragments, which
you latch on to as you improv and then let your ear lead it somewhere.
Also, some ideas can be abstract, like: play 3 notes per bar, which is
what some of the Bergonzi exercises are about. That's a formula that
when you adhere to, it expands your hearing as well as your facility as
well as the quality of what you hear in your head as a finished idea.
Like you might suddenly relate it to what Coltrane does on &quot;My Favorite
Things&quot;. etc.

There is no escape from mastering the fundamentals... the more advanced
I get, the more clear that becomes to me.

-Dan
<a href="http://danadler.com" target="_blank">http://danadler.com</a>

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#23: Re: Bebop Scale Fingerings

Posted on 2005-02-06 00:08:14 by ken

All great points. I totally agree. I do mechanical exercises all the
time, but they are much closer to what I want to do musically than
playing scales and arps... That's all I meant.

And I do practice scales and arps to some extent (but very differently
than I used to).

About singers not being able to scat perfectly and all that; well,
that's exactly why I am spending so much time these days learning how
to SING solos.

I have so much mechanical stuff and improvisational 'tools' under my
fingers (and yes, I can hear them before I play them). I will also
continue to keep doing that stuff (I'm still doing stuff from Bergonzi
volume 1 over tunes like Satellite, 26-2 etc...). They are very
important.

Singers can't scat at all because many of them can't really hear all
that well to begin with. Also, they haven't spent time scatting other
people's solos...

Anyway, that's a totally separate issue that I am dealing with in a
different way (like I said, by singing solos and tunes etc... Being
able to make and hear music without the guitar in hand (so as to reduce
the 'crutch' aspect of my playing. It's a fine line between the
mastery of the instrument (which is very important) and the crutchery
of the instrument (which is dangerous, and I think it's often hard to
tell sometimes...))

But I completely agree with your post...

Ken

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#24: Re: Bebop Scale Fingerings

Posted on 2005-02-06 00:17:56 by ken

Dan Adler wrote:

&gt; have to get some sounds into your hands and ears, and the two
processes
&gt; are intertwined in ways we don't really understand. Being able to
start
&gt; a scale or arp (bebop or not) from each degree of the chord on a fast
&gt; standard with lots of changes as the chords are flying by is
something
&gt; everyone should master. If you happen to be able to already sing it
and
&gt; then play it, then that's one way to achieve it, but for most of us
it
&gt; works hand in hand. You learn to hear it as you learn to play it.

Oops, by the way I forgot to mention that one reason why I am doing
what I am doing now is because I came into learning jazz the mechanical
way... Playing arps and scales through tunes etc (sort of like some of
the Bergonzi stuff).

That's one reason why I am trying to get away from it because
oftentimes, after years of doing stuff like that, I sometimes sound
like that when I play. (like I'm practicing!)

I definitely, definitely agree that you have to have that under your
fingers for sure. There's no getting around that.

Ken

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#25: Re: Bebop Scale Fingerings

Posted on 2005-02-06 16:57:31 by Dan Adler

&gt; that's exactly why I am spending so much time these days learning how
&gt; to SING solos.

I'm glad I'm not your neighbor :-)

-Dan
<a href="http://danadler.com" target="_blank">http://danadler.com</a>

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#26: Re: Bebop Scale Fingerings

Posted on 2005-02-11 02:36:10 by pmfan57

Dan Adler wrote:
&gt; &gt; So sometimes I have to shift a half-step up (to grab the b6) and
&gt; &gt; then slide back down to the 5 and I'm back at my original position.
&gt;
&gt; That makes it non-symmetrical, which is what I want to avoid. I want
to
&gt; slide from b6 to 6 going up and from b6 to 5 going down in the same
&gt; position over 2 octaves in multiple positions. Lets see you solve
that
&gt; one :-)
&gt;
&gt; -Dan
&gt; <a href="http://danadler.com" target="_blank">http://danadler.com</a>

Doesn't my way, outlined in my earlier post, solve that? Descending, I
slide with a Martino index finger slide going from 6th to 5th (on the D
string) and ascending I do the index finger slide up from fifth to 6th
on the D string. (No need to slide at all on the B string, though.)
These bebop scales are almost always used to descend, from what my ears
tell me. But it's fun to go up too.

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