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#1: Harmonic Analysis: Tenderly

Posted on 2006-02-01 08:46:57 by Jens Weisse

Hi there support group,

I am trying to understand "Tenderly", particularly bars 8-11 (Realbook1
version)

Db9/Bb13/Db9/Bb13 G7b9

What is this first row? smells just a little bit like diminshed
substitutions for V7? but then, the chords would all have to be b9 doms...
What would be a "standard" interpretation of this progression in it's
harmonic context? (Ebmaj key)

Any hints are appreciated...

Jens

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#2: Re: Harmonic Analysis: Tenderly

Posted on 2006-02-01 15:17:27 by Kevin Van Sant

On Wed, 1 Feb 2006 08:46:57 +0100, "Jens Weisse"
&lt;<a href="mailto:jens.weisse.ns.&#64;domain.com" target="_blank">jens.weisse.ns.&#64;domain.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&lt;drpp1i$on1$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.sap-ag.de" target="_blank">1&#64;news.sap-ag.de</a>&gt; :

&gt;Hi there support group,
&gt;
&gt;I am trying to understand &quot;Tenderly&quot;, particularly bars 8-11 (Realbook1
&gt;version)
&gt;
&gt;Db9/Bb13/Db9/Bb13 G7b9
&gt;
&gt;What is this first row? smells just a little bit like diminshed
&gt;substitutions for V7? but then, the chords would all have to be b9 doms...
&gt;What would be a &quot;standard&quot; interpretation of this progression in it's
&gt;harmonic context? (Ebmaj key)
&gt;


a simple way to look at the tonal shifting is:
iv min / tonic (Ebmaj) / iv min / ii-v to relative minor

I prefer to play the chords as this:

Abm / Bb13 / Abm / Dm7b5 G7b9 / which of course leads to the
next chord, Cm.

It's the same thing harmonically, but putting the focus on the Abm
seems much more comfortable, as does having that last bar be a normal
minor ii-v


_________________________________________
Kevin Van Sant
jazz guitar

<a href="http://www.kevinvansant.com" target="_blank">http://www.kevinvansant.com</a>
to buy my CDs, hear sound clips, see videos, and get more info.

Visit my new Instant Download Mp3 Store at:
<a href="http://www.onestopjazz.com/mp3-store.html" target="_blank">http://www.onestopjazz.com/mp3-store.html</a>

Alternate site for gig tape soundclips
<a href="http://www.soundclick.com/bands/kevinvansant_music.htm" target="_blank">http://www.soundclick.com/bands/kevinvansant_music.htm</a>

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#3: Re: Harmonic Analysis: Tenderly

Posted on 2006-02-01 15:47:49 by charles robinson

All that I can add is that you can convert it to a type of 2-5 by playing
Ab-7to Db9 but then to maintain a good harmonic rhythm you would probably
want to do the same with the next change : F-7 to Bb13 for instance.

Charlie

&quot;Kevin Van Sant&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:kvansant&#64;pobox.com" target="_blank">kvansant&#64;pobox.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:m5g1u1dc95bs1mifah461ph2r3qmv1nrpn&#64;4ax.com..." target="_blank">m5g1u1dc95bs1mifah461ph2r3qmv1nrpn&#64;4ax.com...</a>
&gt; On Wed, 1 Feb 2006 08:46:57 +0100, &quot;Jens Weisse&quot;
&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:jens.weisse.ns.&#64;domain.com" target="_blank">jens.weisse.ns.&#64;domain.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; &lt;drpp1i$on1$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.sap-ag.de" target="_blank">1&#64;news.sap-ag.de</a>&gt; :
&gt;
&gt;&gt;Hi there support group,
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;I am trying to understand &quot;Tenderly&quot;, particularly bars 8-11 (Realbook1
&gt;&gt;version)
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;Db9/Bb13/Db9/Bb13 G7b9
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;What is this first row? smells just a little bit like diminshed
&gt;&gt;substitutions for V7? but then, the chords would all have to be b9 doms...
&gt;&gt;What would be a &quot;standard&quot; interpretation of this progression in it's
&gt;&gt;harmonic context? (Ebmaj key)
&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; a simple way to look at the tonal shifting is:
&gt; iv min / tonic (Ebmaj) / iv min / ii-v to relative minor
&gt;
&gt; I prefer to play the chords as this:
&gt;
&gt; Abm / Bb13 / Abm / Dm7b5 G7b9 / which of course leads to the
&gt; next chord, Cm.
&gt;
&gt; It's the same thing harmonically, but putting the focus on the Abm
&gt; seems much more comfortable, as does having that last bar be a normal
&gt; minor ii-v
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; _________________________________________
&gt; Kevin Van Sant
&gt; jazz guitar
&gt;
&gt; <a href="http://www.kevinvansant.com" target="_blank">http://www.kevinvansant.com</a>
&gt; to buy my CDs, hear sound clips, see videos, and get more info.
&gt;
&gt; Visit my new Instant Download Mp3 Store at:
&gt; <a href="http://www.onestopjazz.com/mp3-store.html" target="_blank">http://www.onestopjazz.com/mp3-store.html</a>
&gt;
&gt; Alternate site for gig tape soundclips
&gt; <a href="http://www.soundclick.com/bands/kevinvansant_music.htm" target="_blank">http://www.soundclick.com/bands/kevinvansant_music.htm</a>
&gt;

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#4: Re: Harmonic Analysis: Tenderly

Posted on 2006-02-01 16:08:33 by charles robinson

I should also add that if you do it that way you would be thinking of the
Ab- as the two in the temporary key center of Gb and then the F-7 as the two
in Eb, the key center to which you have returned.
Charlie

Charlie
&quot;charles robinson&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:robinsonchazz&#64;comcast.net" target="_blank">robinsonchazz&#64;comcast.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:4vidndaMkLQUVn3eRVn-rw&#64;comcast.com..." target="_blank">4vidndaMkLQUVn3eRVn-rw&#64;comcast.com...</a>
&gt; All that I can add is that you can convert it to a type of 2-5 by playing
&gt; Ab-7to Db9 but then to maintain a good harmonic rhythm you would probably
&gt; want to do the same with the next change : F-7 to Bb13 for instance.
&gt;
&gt; Charlie
&gt;
&gt; &quot;Kevin Van Sant&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:kvansant&#64;pobox.com" target="_blank">kvansant&#64;pobox.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:<a href="mailto:m5g1u1dc95bs1mifah461ph2r3qmv1nrpn&#64;4ax.com..." target="_blank">m5g1u1dc95bs1mifah461ph2r3qmv1nrpn&#64;4ax.com...</a>
&gt;&gt; On Wed, 1 Feb 2006 08:46:57 +0100, &quot;Jens Weisse&quot;
&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:jens.weisse.ns.&#64;domain.com" target="_blank">jens.weisse.ns.&#64;domain.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt; &lt;drpp1i$on1$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.sap-ag.de" target="_blank">1&#64;news.sap-ag.de</a>&gt; :
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;Hi there support group,
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;I am trying to understand &quot;Tenderly&quot;, particularly bars 8-11 (Realbook1
&gt;&gt;&gt;version)
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;Db9/Bb13/Db9/Bb13 G7b9
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;What is this first row? smells just a little bit like diminshed
&gt;&gt;&gt;substitutions for V7? but then, the chords would all have to be b9
&gt;&gt;&gt;doms...
&gt;&gt;&gt;What would be a &quot;standard&quot; interpretation of this progression in it's
&gt;&gt;&gt;harmonic context? (Ebmaj key)
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; a simple way to look at the tonal shifting is:
&gt;&gt; iv min / tonic (Ebmaj) / iv min / ii-v to relative minor
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; I prefer to play the chords as this:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Abm / Bb13 / Abm / Dm7b5 G7b9 / which of course leads to the
&gt;&gt; next chord, Cm.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; It's the same thing harmonically, but putting the focus on the Abm
&gt;&gt; seems much more comfortable, as does having that last bar be a normal
&gt;&gt; minor ii-v
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; _________________________________________
&gt;&gt; Kevin Van Sant
&gt;&gt; jazz guitar
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; <a href="http://www.kevinvansant.com" target="_blank">http://www.kevinvansant.com</a>
&gt;&gt; to buy my CDs, hear sound clips, see videos, and get more info.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Visit my new Instant Download Mp3 Store at:
&gt;&gt; <a href="http://www.onestopjazz.com/mp3-store.html" target="_blank">http://www.onestopjazz.com/mp3-store.html</a>
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Alternate site for gig tape soundclips
&gt;&gt; <a href="http://www.soundclick.com/bands/kevinvansant_music.htm" target="_blank">http://www.soundclick.com/bands/kevinvansant_music.htm</a>
&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt;

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#5: Re: Harmonic Analysis: Tenderly

Posted on 2006-02-01 17:41:59 by jurupari

All that I can add is that you can convert it to a type of 2-5 by
playing
Ab-7to Db9 but then to maintain a good harmonic rhythm you would
probably
want to do the same with the next change : F-7 to Bb13 for instance.

I have played that passage with a Bb pedal point for years, but I think
I cribbed it, maybe from Tal. Anyway my head says 4 minor for all
that, and I sor of naturally hear the c harmonic minor toneset, the ab
melodic minor toneset as the extensions that work over what's a vamp
the way I play it because of the pedal.

Since that's as common a move as tying my shoes, meaning the use of 4
minor-3 dominant in some standard tune or the other, there's no need
for me to feel any shift in key, just a planing of the upper structure
to the tensions I mentioned above, since the bass plods right on along
in Eb and that keeps the tonality anchored in Eb through the whole
song, for me, anyway.

That gives you a ton of substitution and a sort of
'quasi-reharmonization' to coin a phrase choices that are all related
to the 4 minor sound and don't get out if other instruments are dealing
with the Db-Bb thing mentioned, or Abmin/Bb or whatever, since they're
all part of the same tonal whatchamacallit.

Clif

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#6: Re: Harmonic Analysis: Tenderly

Posted on 2006-02-01 20:31:58 by charles robinson

I do it both ways, sometimes thinking of it as 4 minor and at others a
momentary shift to a 2-5 in Gb . Each gives you a slightly different
perspective. But you can also put that Bb pedal under the 2-5s ( both in Gb
and Eb )and get movement along with suspension instead of just the latter as
you do with the 4 minor. It all depends on how you hear it.

Charlie



&lt;<a href="mailto:jurupari&#64;aol.com" target="_blank">jurupari&#64;aol.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:1138812119.488321.238220&#64;o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1138812119.488321.238220&#64;o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt; All that I can add is that you can convert it to a type of 2-5 by
&gt; playing
&gt; Ab-7to Db9 but then to maintain a good harmonic rhythm you would
&gt; probably
&gt; want to do the same with the next change : F-7 to Bb13 for instance.
&gt;
&gt; I have played that passage with a Bb pedal point for years, but I think
&gt; I cribbed it, maybe from Tal. Anyway my head says 4 minor for all
&gt; that, and I sor of naturally hear the c harmonic minor toneset, the ab
&gt; melodic minor toneset as the extensions that work over what's a vamp
&gt; the way I play it because of the pedal.
&gt;
&gt; Since that's as common a move as tying my shoes, meaning the use of 4
&gt; minor-3 dominant in some standard tune or the other, there's no need
&gt; for me to feel any shift in key, just a planing of the upper structure
&gt; to the tensions I mentioned above, since the bass plods right on along
&gt; in Eb and that keeps the tonality anchored in Eb through the whole
&gt; song, for me, anyway.
&gt;
&gt; That gives you a ton of substitution and a sort of
&gt; 'quasi-reharmonization' to coin a phrase choices that are all related
&gt; to the 4 minor sound and don't get out if other instruments are dealing
&gt; with the Db-Bb thing mentioned, or Abmin/Bb or whatever, since they're
&gt; all part of the same tonal whatchamacallit.
&gt;
&gt; Clif
&gt;

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#7: Re: Harmonic Analysis: Tenderly

Posted on 2006-02-01 20:43:35 by jurupari

Each gives you a slightly different
perspective

Actually it's in there for me too since I learned the church modes
before the minor scales and always hear it too. I tend to get into the
no 4th hex mindset reacting to them these days, though - changes the
way I make melodies to do that, I think - probably too ot for the
original question.

It's an interesting topic to me, because after awhile our idea of what
a 'key' is definitely expands, but I'm sensing the experience is very
different from person to person. Not so much here on this because I
think we react to that change about the same, but in general among
players, I mean.

Clif

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#8: Re: Harmonic Analysis: Tenderly

Posted on 2006-02-01 21:34:26 by charles robinson

That is another aspect, if I was playing it with a group I'd either be
listening to match what the others are doing or leading it where I want it
if it felt shakey but the differences in thinking are in your mind, the same
things fit either way. It seems like we were talking about this recently,
some guys like the key center approach while others favor relating
everything to the original key.

Charlie

&lt;<a href="mailto:jurupari&#64;aol.com" target="_blank">jurupari&#64;aol.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:1138823015.172806.11790&#64;o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1138823015.172806.11790&#64;o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt; Each gives you a slightly different
&gt; perspective
&gt;
&gt; Actually it's in there for me too since I learned the church modes
&gt; before the minor scales and always hear it too. I tend to get into the
&gt; no 4th hex mindset reacting to them these days, though - changes the
&gt; way I make melodies to do that, I think - probably too ot for the
&gt; original question.
&gt;
&gt; It's an interesting topic to me, because after awhile our idea of what
&gt; a 'key' is definitely expands, but I'm sensing the experience is very
&gt; different from person to person. Not so much here on this because I
&gt; think we react to that change about the same, but in general among
&gt; players, I mean.
&gt;
&gt; Clif
&gt;

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#9: Re: Harmonic Analysis: Tenderly

Posted on 2006-02-01 23:44:45 by Keith Freeman

&gt; some guys like the key center approach while others favor relating
&gt; everything to the original key.
In this case I would go with the 'subdominant minor' (IVm and its various
relatives) approach, though, for one thing because it's a key to
understanding a lot of otherwise difficult-to-understand harmonies.

-Keith

Portable Changes, tips etc. at <a href="http://home.wanadoo.nl/keith.freeman/" target="_blank">http://home.wanadoo.nl/keith.freeman/</a>
e-mail only to keith DOT freeman AT wanadoo DOT nl

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#10: Re: Harmonic Analysis: Tenderly

Posted on 2006-02-02 00:49:19 by jurupari

In this case I would go with the 'subdominant minor' (IVm and its
various
relatives) approach, though, for one thing because it's a key to
understanding a lot of otherwise difficult-to-understand harmonies.

That's the rub for me for some approaches - the 'on paper' explanations
can be very difficult to follow and retain, but by ear, relating a 4
minor, 3 (dominant #/b 9/5) and b7 (dominant 13 # 11) is as natural as
getting bit by bugs, and about as common.

But again, that's to me - I hear it over and over, and get to know the
sound whenever I hear it and just react to that. Same for any dominant
over a scale note bass and its tritone sub.

Clif

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#11: Re: Harmonic Analysis: Tenderly

Posted on 2006-02-02 09:51:39 by Jens Weisse

Thanks guys,

I think I'll explore this tonight.

Best -

Jens, a little more enlightened every day.

&lt;<a href="mailto:jurupari&#64;aol.com" target="_blank">jurupari&#64;aol.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
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&gt; In this case I would go with the 'subdominant minor' (IVm and its
&gt; various
&gt; relatives) approach, though, for one thing because it's a key to
&gt; understanding a lot of otherwise difficult-to-understand harmonies.
&gt;
&gt; That's the rub for me for some approaches - the 'on paper' explanations
&gt; can be very difficult to follow and retain, but by ear, relating a 4
&gt; minor, 3 (dominant #/b 9/5) and b7 (dominant 13 # 11) is as natural as
&gt; getting bit by bugs, and about as common.
&gt;
&gt; But again, that's to me - I hear it over and over, and get to know the
&gt; sound whenever I hear it and just react to that. Same for any dominant
&gt; over a scale note bass and its tritone sub.
&gt;
&gt; Clif
&gt;

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#12: Re: Harmonic Analysis: Tenderly

Posted on 2006-02-02 14:26:12 by Joey Goldstein

Jens Weisse wrote:
&gt;
&gt; Hi there support group,
&gt;
&gt; I am trying to understand &quot;Tenderly&quot;, particularly bars 8-11 (Realbook1
&gt; version)
&gt;
&gt; Db9/Bb13/Db9/Bb13 G7b9
&gt;
&gt; What is this first row? smells just a little bit like diminshed
&gt; substitutions for V7? but then, the chords would all have to be b9 doms...
&gt; What would be a &quot;standard&quot; interpretation of this progression in it's
&gt; harmonic context? (Ebmaj key)
&gt;
&gt; Any hints are appreciated...
&gt;
&gt; Jens

Where'd you get those changes? (Better ones to follow.)
If that's the section of the tune I think it is, and you're in Eb, then
the analysis is:

bVII7 V7 bVII7 V7 V7/IIm IIm
Db7 |Bb7 |Db7 |Bb7 G7 |Cm etc.

bVII7 is a borrowed chord from the parallel minor key, Eb minor. It
comes from the Eb nat minor scale. In the key of Eb major it is often
said to possess what is called subdominant minor function. SDM chords
are chords that have the essential quality of the IVm chord, i.e. the
subdominant chord in the parallel minor key. The main indicator of SDM
function is the presence of scale degree b6 (in Eb Sb6 is Cb) in the
chord. So, this Db7 has a function similar to Abm.
The original change there is actually Fm7b5 which is enharmonically the
same as Abm6. (see below)

Here's the changes from The New Real Book, Vol. 1.

Ebmaj7 |Ab9#11 |Ebm9 |Ab13 |

Fm9 |Db9#11 |Ebmaj7 |(Gm7 C7) |

Fm7b5 |Bb13 |Fm7b5 |Bb13 Bdim7 |

Cm7 |F13 |Fm7 |Bb7 ||

Ebmaj7 |Ab9#11 |Ebm9 |Ab13 |

Fm9 |Db9#11 |Ebmaj7 |(Gm7 C7) |

Fm7b5 |Bb13 Bdim7|Cm7 |F13 F#dim7 |

Gm7 C7#5 |Fm9 Bb7 |Eb6 |(Gm7 C7) ||

--
Joey Goldstein
<a href="http://www.joeygoldstein.com" target="_blank">http://www.joeygoldstein.com</a>
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

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#13: Re: Harmonic Analysis: Tenderly

Posted on 2006-02-02 16:48:47 by charles robinson

If you look ay it that way you can say that the Db9 is being played as the
enharmonic equivalent of the F-7b5 found in the New Real Book.

Charlie

&quot;Joey Goldstein&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nospam&#64;nowhere.net" target="_blank">nospam&#64;nowhere.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:43E20874.FDA11AC8&#64;nowhere.net..." target="_blank">43E20874.FDA11AC8&#64;nowhere.net...</a>
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Jens Weisse wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Hi there support group,
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; I am trying to understand &quot;Tenderly&quot;, particularly bars 8-11 (Realbook1
&gt;&gt; version)
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Db9/Bb13/Db9/Bb13 G7b9
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; What is this first row? smells just a little bit like diminshed
&gt;&gt; substitutions for V7? but then, the chords would all have to be b9
&gt;&gt; doms...
&gt;&gt; What would be a &quot;standard&quot; interpretation of this progression in it's
&gt;&gt; harmonic context? (Ebmaj key)
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Any hints are appreciated...
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Jens
&gt;
&gt; Where'd you get those changes? (Better ones to follow.)
&gt; If that's the section of the tune I think it is, and you're in Eb, then
&gt; the analysis is:
&gt;
&gt; bVII7 V7 bVII7 V7 V7/IIm IIm
&gt; Db7 |Bb7 |Db7 |Bb7 G7 |Cm etc.
&gt;
&gt; bVII7 is a borrowed chord from the parallel minor key, Eb minor. It
&gt; comes from the Eb nat minor scale. In the key of Eb major it is often
&gt; said to possess what is called subdominant minor function. SDM chords
&gt; are chords that have the essential quality of the IVm chord, i.e. the
&gt; subdominant chord in the parallel minor key. The main indicator of SDM
&gt; function is the presence of scale degree b6 (in Eb Sb6 is Cb) in the
&gt; chord. So, this Db7 has a function similar to Abm.
&gt; The original change there is actually Fm7b5 which is enharmonically the
&gt; same as Abm6. (see below)
&gt;
&gt; Here's the changes from The New Real Book, Vol. 1.
&gt;
&gt; Ebmaj7 |Ab9#11 |Ebm9 |Ab13 |
&gt;
&gt; Fm9 |Db9#11 |Ebmaj7 |(Gm7 C7) |
&gt;
&gt; Fm7b5 |Bb13 |Fm7b5 |Bb13 Bdim7 |
&gt;
&gt; Cm7 |F13 |Fm7 |Bb7 ||
&gt;
&gt; Ebmaj7 |Ab9#11 |Ebm9 |Ab13 |
&gt;
&gt; Fm9 |Db9#11 |Ebmaj7 |(Gm7 C7) |
&gt;
&gt; Fm7b5 |Bb13 Bdim7|Cm7 |F13 F#dim7 |
&gt;
&gt; Gm7 C7#5 |Fm9 Bb7 |Eb6 |(Gm7 C7) ||
&gt;
&gt; --
&gt; Joey Goldstein
&gt; <a href="http://www.joeygoldstein.com" target="_blank">http://www.joeygoldstein.com</a>
&gt; joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

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#14: Re: Harmonic Analysis: Tenderly

Posted on 2006-02-02 18:04:06 by Keith Freeman

The original poster might also want to note that the Db7 is always used as
a backdoor progression (bVII7 - I) - one of the applications of the
subdominant minor:

&gt; Fm9 |Db9#11 |Ebmaj7 |(Gm7 C7) |

-Keith

Portable Changes, tips etc. at <a href="http://home.wanadoo.nl/keith.freeman/" target="_blank">http://home.wanadoo.nl/keith.freeman/</a>
e-mail only to keith DOT freeman AT wanadoo DOT nl

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#15: Re: Harmonic Analysis: Tenderly

Posted on 2006-02-02 18:24:45 by charles robinson

Another thing that becomes clear through all of this is that the basic
change is Bb7. All of the different approaches including m7b5 (F-7b5), IIm7
(Ab-7), etc. are just normal ways of extending that basic change.

Charlie

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&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Jens Weisse wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Hi there support group,
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; I am trying to understand &quot;Tenderly&quot;, particularly bars 8-11 (Realbook1
&gt;&gt; version)
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Db9/Bb13/Db9/Bb13 G7b9
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; What is this first row? smells just a little bit like diminshed
&gt;&gt; substitutions for V7? but then, the chords would all have to be b9
&gt;&gt; doms...
&gt;&gt; What would be a &quot;standard&quot; interpretation of this progression in it's
&gt;&gt; harmonic context? (Ebmaj key)
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Any hints are appreciated...
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Jens
&gt;
&gt; Where'd you get those changes? (Better ones to follow.)
&gt; If that's the section of the tune I think it is, and you're in Eb, then
&gt; the analysis is:
&gt;
&gt; bVII7 V7 bVII7 V7 V7/IIm IIm
&gt; Db7 |Bb7 |Db7 |Bb7 G7 |Cm etc.
&gt;
&gt; bVII7 is a borrowed chord from the parallel minor key, Eb minor. It
&gt; comes from the Eb nat minor scale. In the key of Eb major it is often
&gt; said to possess what is called subdominant minor function. SDM chords
&gt; are chords that have the essential quality of the IVm chord, i.e. the
&gt; subdominant chord in the parallel minor key. The main indicator of SDM
&gt; function is the presence of scale degree b6 (in Eb Sb6 is Cb) in the
&gt; chord. So, this Db7 has a function similar to Abm.
&gt; The original change there is actually Fm7b5 which is enharmonically the
&gt; same as Abm6. (see below)
&gt;
&gt; Here's the changes from The New Real Book, Vol. 1.
&gt;
&gt; Ebmaj7 |Ab9#11 |Ebm9 |Ab13 |
&gt;
&gt; Fm9 |Db9#11 |Ebmaj7 |(Gm7 C7) |
&gt;
&gt; Fm7b5 |Bb13 |Fm7b5 |Bb13 Bdim7 |
&gt;
&gt; Cm7 |F13 |Fm7 |Bb7 ||
&gt;
&gt; Ebmaj7 |Ab9#11 |Ebm9 |Ab13 |
&gt;
&gt; Fm9 |Db9#11 |Ebmaj7 |(Gm7 C7) |
&gt;
&gt; Fm7b5 |Bb13 Bdim7|Cm7 |F13 F#dim7 |
&gt;
&gt; Gm7 C7#5 |Fm9 Bb7 |Eb6 |(Gm7 C7) ||
&gt;
&gt; --
&gt; Joey Goldstein
&gt; <a href="http://www.joeygoldstein.com" target="_blank">http://www.joeygoldstein.com</a>
&gt; joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

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#16: Re: Harmonic Analysis: Tenderly

Posted on 2006-02-03 01:47:22 by Joey Goldstein

charles robinson wrote:
&gt;
&gt; If you look ay it that way you can say that the Db9 is being played as the
&gt; enharmonic equivalent of the F-7b5 found in the New Real Book.

Yep. They're all (Iim7b5, IVm, bVII7, etc.) SDM chords to me.

&gt;
&gt; Charlie
&gt;
&gt; &quot;Joey Goldstein&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nospam&#64;nowhere.net" target="_blank">nospam&#64;nowhere.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:<a href="mailto:43E20874.FDA11AC8&#64;nowhere.net..." target="_blank">43E20874.FDA11AC8&#64;nowhere.net...</a>
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Jens Weisse wrote:
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; Hi there support group,
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; I am trying to understand &quot;Tenderly&quot;, particularly bars 8-11 (Realbook1
&gt; &gt;&gt; version)
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; Db9/Bb13/Db9/Bb13 G7b9
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; What is this first row? smells just a little bit like diminshed
&gt; &gt;&gt; substitutions for V7? but then, the chords would all have to be b9
&gt; &gt;&gt; doms...
&gt; &gt;&gt; What would be a &quot;standard&quot; interpretation of this progression in it's
&gt; &gt;&gt; harmonic context? (Ebmaj key)
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; Any hints are appreciated...
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; Jens
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Where'd you get those changes? (Better ones to follow.)
&gt; &gt; If that's the section of the tune I think it is, and you're in Eb, then
&gt; &gt; the analysis is:
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; bVII7 V7 bVII7 V7 V7/IIm IIm
&gt; &gt; Db7 |Bb7 |Db7 |Bb7 G7 |Cm etc.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; bVII7 is a borrowed chord from the parallel minor key, Eb minor. It
&gt; &gt; comes from the Eb nat minor scale. In the key of Eb major it is often
&gt; &gt; said to possess what is called subdominant minor function. SDM chords
&gt; &gt; are chords that have the essential quality of the IVm chord, i.e. the
&gt; &gt; subdominant chord in the parallel minor key. The main indicator of SDM
&gt; &gt; function is the presence of scale degree b6 (in Eb Sb6 is Cb) in the
&gt; &gt; chord. So, this Db7 has a function similar to Abm.
&gt; &gt; The original change there is actually Fm7b5 which is enharmonically the
&gt; &gt; same as Abm6. (see below)
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Here's the changes from The New Real Book, Vol. 1.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Ebmaj7 |Ab9#11 |Ebm9 |Ab13 |
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Fm9 |Db9#11 |Ebmaj7 |(Gm7 C7) |
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Fm7b5 |Bb13 |Fm7b5 |Bb13 Bdim7 |
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Cm7 |F13 |Fm7 |Bb7 ||
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Ebmaj7 |Ab9#11 |Ebm9 |Ab13 |
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Fm9 |Db9#11 |Ebmaj7 |(Gm7 C7) |
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Fm7b5 |Bb13 Bdim7|Cm7 |F13 F#dim7 |
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Gm7 C7#5 |Fm9 Bb7 |Eb6 |(Gm7 C7) ||
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; --
&gt; &gt; Joey Goldstein
&gt; &gt; <a href="http://www.joeygoldstein.com" target="_blank">http://www.joeygoldstein.com</a>
&gt; &gt; joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

--
Joey Goldstein
<a href="http://www.joeygoldstein.com" target="_blank">http://www.joeygoldstein.com</a>
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

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#17: Re: Harmonic Analysis: Tenderly

Posted on 2006-02-03 01:53:02 by Joey Goldstein

Keith Freeman wrote:
&gt;
&gt; The original poster might also want to note that the Db7 is always used as
&gt; a backdoor progression (bVII7 - I)

Not always. Usually, yes. But not always.
&quot;Always&quot; is a dangerous word to use when discussing music, IMO.

&gt; - one of the applications of the
&gt; subdominant minor:
&gt;
&gt; &gt; Fm9 |Db9#11 |Ebmaj7 |(Gm7 C7) |
&gt;
&gt; -Keith
&gt;
&gt; Portable Changes, tips etc. at <a href="http://home.wanadoo.nl/keith.freeman/" target="_blank">http://home.wanadoo.nl/keith.freeman/</a>
&gt; e-mail only to keith DOT freeman AT wanadoo DOT nl

--
Joey Goldstein
<a href="http://www.joeygoldstein.com" target="_blank">http://www.joeygoldstein.com</a>
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

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#18: Re: Harmonic Analysis: Tenderly

Posted on 2006-02-03 10:15:32 by Jens Weisse

&quot;Joey Goldstein&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nospam&#64;nowhere.net" target="_blank">nospam&#64;nowhere.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:43E20874.FDA11AC8&#64;nowhere.net..." target="_blank">43E20874.FDA11AC8&#64;nowhere.net...</a>
&gt;
&gt; The original change there is actually Fm7b5 which is enharmonically the
&gt; same as Abm6. (see below)
&gt;


Ahhh the missing link! this makes it much more clear. Changes are from
Realbook1.

Thanks a lot, Joey. Thanks y'all!

Best-

Jens

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#19: Re: Harmonic Analysis: Tenderly

Posted on 2006-02-03 10:17:49 by Jens Weisse

&quot;Keith Freeman&quot; &lt;smtp.cablewanadoo.nl&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:Xns975EB7DBF784Ckeithfreemanwanadoo&#64;194.134.69.69..." target="_blank">Xns975EB7DBF784Ckeithfreemanwanadoo&#64;194.134.69.69...</a>
&gt; The original poster might also want to note that the Db7 is always used as
&gt; a backdoor progression (bVII7 - I) - one of the applications of the
&gt; subdominant minor:
&gt;
&gt; &gt; Fm9 |Db9#11 |Ebmaj7 |(Gm7 C7) |

I had noticed that - and understand it (as it is covered in detail in the
&quot;hearing the changes&quot; book).

Thanks though.

Kind regards,

Jens

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#20: Re: Harmonic Analysis: Tenderly

Posted on 2006-02-03 13:21:53 by Keith Freeman

&gt;&gt; The original poster might also want to note that the Db7 is always
&gt;&gt; used as a backdoor progression (bVII7 - I)
&gt;
&gt; Not always. Usually, yes. But not always.

I meant in that chart, Joey!

-Keith

Portable Changes, tips etc. at <a href="http://home.wanadoo.nl/keith.freeman/" target="_blank">http://home.wanadoo.nl/keith.freeman/</a>
e-mail only to keith DOT freeman AT wanadoo DOT nl

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#21: Re: Harmonic Analysis: Tenderly

Posted on 2006-02-04 04:34:30 by Winston Castro

On 03 Feb 2006 12:21:53 GMT, Keith Freeman &lt;smtp.cablewanadoo.nl&gt;
wrote:

&gt;&gt;&gt; The original poster might also want to note that the Db7 is always
&gt;&gt;&gt; used as a backdoor progression (bVII7 - I)
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Not always. Usually, yes. But not always.
&gt;
&gt;I meant in that chart, Joey!
&gt;
&gt;-Keith
&gt;


I forget which Jimmy Bruno album it's on, but he does a fairly
&quot;killer&quot; version of it.

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